Create mage pkillers

Posted by Crackerjack on 12/03

Why are there so few create mage pkillers? (I can think of only 1). The main reason of course is because 1 tiny spell (detect illusion) completely nullifies a great many of the strengths of a create mage (create mage weapons, walls and pets). Anyone fighting a create mage needs only to cast or get cast on them this spell and the create mage is weakened hugely.

I find create mages to be the most interesting character type to play on this mud .. and I think it is a crying shame there are not more in pkill - they would certainly spice things up! There are so many interesting tactics you can think up using walls and pets ..

Anyway .. please PLEASE can we remove detect illusions power to nullify create mage spells! (I hardly see why they are "illusions" anyway .. if a dopple can hit a mob it is hardly an illusion)

Crackerjack .. create mage and proud of it!

From: Trinity Tuesday, November 25, 04:21AM

I totally agree with Crackerjack.

Create mages have a major disadvantage under this system. BUT like I have written before a good pkill mud is one that doesnt change the fight/spell/skill systems all the time.

Like if 'dispel illusion' was changed or removed and create mages gained more strenght in pkill some other pkillers would suddently have a char that really wasnt so good anymore in pkill. And this is after most pkillers have redisigned their char atleast 2 times to adjust to the changes already put in!

I think that us players should have had a more clear picture of what was going to change and what was not. And that the imms should try to make a list or something like that on what is going to change in the fight/skill/spell system.

Else I think alot of old pkillers and some new too will dissapear.

Trinity Capaci

From: Sandra Tuesday, November 25, 05:24AM

Dispell illusion has been a spell for a long time. And hasn't seemed to hinder those create mages in pkill very much. Howard, Mercenary, Daavya, and Diamanda were all create mage pkillers, and did quite well.

In response to Trinity, Legend is not a pkill mud. Its a mud that offers the option.(Yes, there is a difference)

While I agree that it would have been helpful to everyone if we knew for certain exactly what was going to need changed/fixed in the new system, it just wasn't possible. Some things were fixed, which imbalanced others, etc., and made it hard for the immorts to know for sure what was going to change.

-Sandra

From: Paddy Tuesday, November 25, 05:33AM

Personally, I couldn't care less about pkill! What more is, the majority of players here are -not- pkillers Detect illusion is very useful in fighting certain mobs, one in HoL just to take one example

It seems quite unconceivable to me, that the effects of detect illusion should be nullified, and make the majority of mages suffer just to satisfy some pkillers

And btw, as Sandra pointed out, one of the most successfull pkillers ever, Mercenary was a create mage and did very well indeed, despite all detect illusion spells :P

And again, as Sandra has pointed out, Legend is -not- a pkill mud. We do have an -option- whether we want to get involved in pkill or not, and most of us chose to stay out of it, for various reasons

So the changes made here are not only for pkillers or because of pkill, but they affect us all..and however strange it might seem to pkillers, even those of us who choose to stay out of pkill deserve some consideration..especially since it's the majority of us :P

I am grateful to the immorts for doing just this..and not letting pkill take over Legend altogether..

From: Rufus Tuesday, November 25, 11:31AM

Many of the newer mage spells and spells enhancements to the old illusionary spells are not illusionary.

-Ruf

From: Teresa Tuesday, November 25, 12:22PM

I'm not pkill-enabled, but I am a create mage. In fact, I may be the only specialized create mage in the game. By that I mean that I rely completely upon my spells to accomplish my ends. I rarely carry a weapon, and when I do it is one that I create myself. I find that create magic can be very potent when applied properly, but I agree that cause magic is better suited to pkill.

One reason is that when you move into the realm of pkill, character stats become all-important. And the only school of magic that can manipulate character stats is cause magic. Weakness, idiocy, clumsiness -- these spells can make your opponent more vulnerable to a stun, lose attack speed, or even drop their weapon.

Another reason is that cause magic spells do more damage than create magic. An immolate is more powerful than a flamestrike. An etheric void may drain your opponents mana and move, but nobody ever died (directly, anyway) of having no mana.

Detect illusion isn't the reason why walls are useless. I participated in the pkill frenzy Snapper ran on the spur of the moment recently, and I used walls. The people who could dash used a bug to dash past the walls. The people who couldn't dash couldn't get out. Nobody used detect illusion. Doppelgangers are indeed powerless against anyone who can detect illusions, but doppels are pretty powerless anyway. Elementals are better, and aren't impeded by detect illusion.

I'm not saying that create magic is unsuited to pkill. Create mages have some important strengths I wish I had taken the time to try out. Blinding flash caused a great deal of consternation when I used it. For mages that rely on a strength spell to move about or hold their weapon, a dispel magic would be very effective. Dispel magic can remove harmful spells from conjurers and their companions. Walls can trap people, if they can't dash.

I'd say that create mages aren't as bad off as you think, I only wish they had spells that did more damage and that the darn dash bug was fixed.

From: Ulric Tuesday, November 25, 02:06PM

I mostly agree with what Teresa has said.. Being one of the few real create mages in the game currently (using a skull staff doesnt change the fact I'm a true create mage) I have experimented a great deal with spells and various strategies.

Its ironic that anytime anyone mentions that create mages cant pkill people begin to mention very old names such as mercenary, howard.. etc etc.. unfortunatly everyone knows how different the mud is now, and what few advantages we had before have been compromised. In pkill, a create mage has a large arsenal of spells that cause minor nusances.. elementals are only useful in sets of 3+, blinding flash, wall, etheric void.. while these spells are nice.. they dont do a whole lot do your average fighter, and they dont do basically anything against another cause mage of equal intelligence. However all the cause mage has to do is idiocy, clumsy blind (we cant cure blind), detect illusion, weaken, immolate, etc etc.. all of these spells are fiercly dangerous and will usually give the cause mage a gigantic advantage. Obviously like anything skill is the largest factor if you win or lose.. however a poulticer without herbs tends to lose to a straight fighter (and so does a create to a cause). Granted I like being a create mage for non pkill reasons.. especially since there is a much greater variety of spells to cast, but in pkill I would never hinder myself on purpose by being a create mage.

In order to fix these problems, it would be nice to see a good pure damage spell, and more combat effect spells that cause doesnt have (like idiocy, weaken). When it comes to fighting cause mages are better, point blank... I havent found but a small handful of people that would disagree.

Lord Ulric, master of the inferior create mages...

From: Ulric Tuesday, November 25, 02:18PM

Oh yah whats with Cause getting the Cure serious spell?? that used to be a Create magic spell. These roots just dont cut it too much, even with 100 mind. And btw, I like the new mana costs and effects of some of the new create spells, but did the stats on the greater creates get reduced? They see seem to be weaker lately -Shrug-

From: Sandra Tuesday, November 25, 02:21PM

I used Howard and Mercenary as examples in the past, and Daavya and Diamanda as recent examples, because with the new system, no one knows how well any character is going to do in pkill, since its not in yet. :) Ethric void against a cause mage is probably one of the most harmful spells there is. It takes not only their hp, but their mana and mv equally. What good is a mage with no mana to cast? So, while cause magic may have immolate, I think ethric void is more dangerous than any cause spell. I've fought against create mages in pkill. All that I mentioned actually, and a create mage with a few elementals(equipped or not), can dish out some damage.

From: Sandra Tuesday, November 25, 03:21PM

Cause doesn't have the cure serious spell, they have cure light and cure critical. The cure serious spell was removed from the create spell book and replaced with the create healing. The only difference is that instead of the healing going directly on you when you cast it, you make roots that do the same exact healing as the spell used to.

From: Rufus Tuesday, November 25, 03:44PM

Summoned creatures stats have not been changed, if anything, they've been made more powerful. As far as create mages curing blind, dispel magic should cure this and many other nasty little ailments. Note also that dispel magic shatters magic sink.

From: Teresa Tuesday, November 25, 03:41PM

Create mages can cure blind now, by using dispel magic. I've done it many times, and saved an entire Shadowlands party with it.

Etheric void is a great spell against another mage, but against someone who doesn't use mana the damage it does isn't that great.

Elementals and such can dish out damage, but your target won't sit still while you're summoning. You can follow them, so your hit crew is dragged along, but if they group you, you can't order them around anymore.

I won't talk about healing, because I don't think mages should be able to heal. :P

I think both cause and create should both get new spells that do about 100-120 damage in order to compete with the sheer damage that other types, notably strength fighters, can do. Before you cry out, remember that, unlike fighters, spell damage limited by the amount of mana you have, and damage on that scale would burn it up quick. I'd say a 30 or 40 mana flat charge, with the damage coming extra. So 100 damage would cost about 130 or so. I'd agree to a bigger overhead than that, even.

From: Jeannette Tuesday, November 25, 05:19PM

I have no idea how anyone is gonna do in pkill, or how the balance is now or anything, but neither Merc nor Howard, especially Merc fought primarily with spells. Merc would blinding flash a fair amount, use a dopple occasionally, and a wall now and then, but headbutt and bash were certainly more primary methods for him... thas onna the things about magic-use here... you aren't -limited- to magic (except by choice), you can use specials and weapons as well, and that makes balance more complex

From: Crackerjack Wednesday, November 26, 12:37AM

Ok I have to agree with most of what Ulric said (I love being a create mage as a non-pkiller also). But the main reason I posted was because most of the recent changes seem to strengthen cause mages (greater healing, mind requirenments for expert fighting) and i think there needs to be some change made to give pkillers a reason to be create mages (a variety of choices must be a good thing).

At the moment Pkillers are voting (by their choice in characters) by an overwhelming majority that casue is superior to create. My character is not a pkiller, so these changes will no benefit me, but I think it would be great for game balance to see more pkilling creates!

From: Erodic Wednesday, November 26, 02:46AM

Actually, i hate to say this, but merc, howard, daavya, and diamanda didn't usually win with magic. they won with headbutt.

of course, now, there will be some other tactic that someone will figure

From: Siachet Wednesday, November 26, 09:54AM

I have kind of an amusing story about etheric void. (well to me, anyway). This was my very first character to reach level 50 and my first mage. I ha had no idea what I was doing (despite lots of help), and didn't realise th I had to cast my spell in- I thought learning the words would give me spell levels, regardless of when I first used the spell. Obviously this wa was very silly, because the help files are clear on that. The result is I only got good levels on spells I actually needed to use.

I don't think I even have etheric void in my spellbook, for one reason- I was too scared to use it!. The help file implied to me that it was an instant death spell, which could backlash if you aren't up to it. I took this to mean it would kill me instantly if I failed. This wording is still the same. I have never found out whether it actually does backlash, or whether this is simply a mistake.

Fond memories of being a totally befuddled newbie =)

Why am I bothering to post this? I'm not sure.......

Siachet

From: Stradivari Tuesday, December 02, 03:16AM

What's with all this talk about "being one of the few real create mages in the game"? =P Kinda silly if you ask me. I know lotsa create mages. I know ALL my chars have had access to 2nd or 3rd circle create magic, this one being a con/mind 3rd circle. Create mages seem to be doing quite well here at Legend. No, we can't solo some of the bigger mobs in the game like other char types, but those chars get kinda lucky and usually come out of fights with a sliver of HP.

And changes, like the greater beings poofing into creation with full HP has helped me lots. AGG/WARY is kinda weird, but I dunno if that's due to a change somewhere or bad luck ... there IS randomness here on Legend and dice (contrary to popular belief) do NOT have memories. I'm looking forward to the new meals thingy. It'll make roots more effecttive. Of course, I miss being able to heal myself during a fight (you can't eat roots while fighting now), but I agree with Teresa. We shouldn't able to heal. Creating roots? Bah. Why not allowing us to create a str root too? And umm, create lava flows. And umm, all the cause spells. =P

Stradivari ... who is content being a create mage - real or not =P

From: Teresa Tuesday, December 02, 01:09PM

I didn't say -real- create mage, I said -specialized- create mage, mean- ing that I wear only +mind and +mana equipment for the most part, and the only weapons I use are my spells and what I can create with them.

I don't use any weapons or combat skills at all, which I think gives me a unique perspective on the effectiveness of create magic.

And I find create magic to be quite effective. Certainly there are mobs that I won't attack without help, but there are others that I can take out handily.

Still, there are things I'd like to be different:

1. a high-damage (100-120 pt) spell (cause needs one too)
2. fix the bug that players use to dash through walls (heck, I've seen mobs walk through them, which should be the exeption, not the rule)
3. adjust the xp split between a mage and charmed mobs to favor the mage
4. make charmed mobs a member of any group the mage is a member of, so xp isn't lost if the mob gets the killing blow

From: Stradivari Wednesday, December 03, 12:39PM

I never said that you stated that, Teresa. My quote was from another post. If you look very, very closely ... you'll noticed I never mentioned any names. Yes, you said you were a "specialized" mage, but I could care less about it. What I refered to was the people who said they were "real" create mages. What the hell is that? If you've got access to create magic, then you're a create mage ... PERIOD. And as far as I'm concerned, there are lotsa create mages in the MUD, and they're doing just fine. As for PKilling create mages, I must admit I dunno many of them. Perhaps in the future. I don't think that people are choosing cause over create in PKill just because cause is much more powerful. I think it's just a preference thing. No, I'm not a PKiller myself, but IMHO, I think create mages can do just fine. Of course, there are different strategies a create mage must use - but isn't that expected?

Stradivari

From: Somar Wednesday, December 03, 03:44PM

People just don't realize the joy of being a create mage pkiller anymore :P

-misses being one- -sniff-

Somar