Posted by Threshold on 05/17
Was just wondering, am I the only one who thinks it is a bit
overpowered? I mean, it is one of the safest yet most devastating
skills out there, with minimal casting cost. With each successful
chant guh lak vya ex granting a chance for the target to remain stunned fo
for a prolonged period of time, and that low mind chars have no defenses
available to them (warcry is wacked, gunshots can miss, bashes/headbutts y
you can fall on your face, kicks can miss, etc, etc.) I think there should
be a chance for a stun to either miss, or at least raise its mana cost by
50-100%, given that it probably does more damage than an immolate would.
From: Benedick
Wednesday, April 23, 01:30PM
We need some sv_spell eq on this mud
From: Lust
Wednesday, April 23, 01:46PM
I think that people with low mind have plenty of ways
to paralyze mages. Backstab, warcry, headbutt. IMHO, it's
pretty balanced.
From: Threshold
Wednesday, April 23, 02:46PM
The thing is, all those skills are very available to mages
with high or medium mind. Headbutt is something that can be
blocked handily by mages either by tumble, clumsy, or straight
out high dex. Warcry doesn't perform anywhere near the consistency
for it to be effective. As far as backstabs are concerned, mages
can backstab as well, and it is only a combat-initiating skill,
limited by a tick flag. When taking into account the ability
of mages to nullify backstab threats by having high perc of their
own (as opposed to non-mages who have no use for a high mind, really)
by either stacking perc a bit, or blinding the target, or going invis,
it is very clear that non-mages in general, with the probable exception
of dex/perc chars, stand little chance against mages.
From: Solomon
Wednesday, April 23, 02:49PM
In my opinion, stun is no more overpowered than headbutt. In fact, I think
headbutt is more powerful and far more prevalent. Headbutt has not mana
cost. Headbutt doesn't backlash, stunning you. Just as low mind chars have
no defense against a stun, low dex chars have no defense against a bash or
a headbutt. Every type of character has it's own strengths and weaknesses.
If you sacrifice mind for perception and dex in order to get a backstabbin
sniper, don't be surprised that you are stun bait. If you boost your mind
to 100 in order to get the most damage from immolate and the most dangerou
stun, don't be surprised when anybody can drive their forehead into your
face.
In addition, I've always thought that the distribution of mind among the m
was a bit too high. Considering that a low mind character can have as litt
as 20 in that stat, I'd think that normal, mundane mobs like the animals
would all be stun bait. I think that those with the headbutt skill can app
it much more safely than those with the stun spell.
This is just my personal opinion, but I think that stun is reasonably well
balanced with the other options available.
From: Threshold
Wednesday, April 23, 09:13PM
That would be true if this was a balanced mud. There are only a
handful of characters out there who doesn't have 100 dex. Moreover,
because you can go around with 20 mind, there is little need for mages
to actually max out on their mind. I know as little as 50-60 mind,
with the help of idiocy, can be as devastating, and at the same time
applied to a number of mobs that give tons of xp (quite a few players,
too, I might add).
Therefore, a pkilling mage (most likely to be a dex/mind variant) has
little to worry about, other than mages with higher mind than them..
even then, chances are the other stats CAN balance things for them, as
they could most likely sink themselves to limited, but still present,
protection.
If we had bash totally dependant on strength, and headbutt on constitution
mages would be balanced, having little defense against those skills. But
when taking into consideration that little of the pkill-active mages are
non-dex, stun is way overpowered, and a risk-free method ensuring at
least 60 pts of damage a round.
Threshold
PS-regarding headbutts being fail-proof. Against a 100 dex mage, who can
tumble and dish those skills out just as well as you can, falling on your
face or butt isn't exactly 'fail-proof.'
From: Lethargio
Wednesday, April 23, 10:08PM
have you ever tried to pkill against a mage with a sniper char, solomon?
i'm one of the smartest non-mage pkillers around (50 mind nakked!)
and I the most damage I did to a 100 mind mage was like 100-150 hps...
I kind of suck at pkill anyway, but still you know...maybe should
increase damage on guns or some way to balance it out.
P.S. I do -MUCH- better against a fighter/sniper than
a mage (with caps and twinkly stars an all)
From: Solomon
Thursday, April 24, 10:02AM
I will grant you that those mages that have a high dex have the advantages
that go along with that. But the imbalancing thing here is not the stun,
but the dex.
Futhermore, you need a 50 mind to be able to stun, and with that much
mind the only thing you can stun are low mind pkillers, practically. Remem
ber all the other, non-pkilling, mages out there, who may not have 100 dex
You can't 'balance' things by assuming that all mages have 100 dex, cuz it
just ain't so.
When I was pkilling, I had 100 con and mind. This combination sucked for
pkill, but I know that I wasn't the only one out there. You may think that
mages are too powerful, but my experiences don't bear this out. If you wan
to complain about something, complain about how unbalancing dex is. I know
firsthand about that. ;)
From: Lagmonster
Thursday, April 24, 11:08AM
I think stun is overpowered when it allows a quite low-lvl mage to
solo mobs that other types of chars will not even attempt at higher
lvls. A proof of that would be the ease with which mages do (dex or
no dex) against mobs in a dex-ruled mud. Granted that stunbaits are
few and far between, it is a decisive advantage over other types of
chars, even dex, if the dexfighter isn't well-endowed in hps.
From: Lust
Thursday, April 24, 11:41AM
Sure, mages can solo certain mobs at low levels. But you're forgetting
that con fighters [with a bazillion hps at a low level] or dex/perc
fighters [who can hit/flee and possibly first aid] also have their
own types of mobs they can solo. And I tell ya, there are MANY more
mobs with weak con or dex or perc than there are weak minded ones.
From: Lethargio
Thursday, April 24, 09:50PM
umm, I have 50 mind when I pkill, and it still sucks...
well I like fighting 60 mind mages tho ;)
problem is that all those 100 mind mages can kick my butt
A easy solution to all this is to let stun only last for 1 round...and
also, raise the mana cost for stun a bit
From: Stradivari
Thursday, April 24, 09:54PM
As a CON mage ... stun is my only weapon against big mobs. I can't
headbutt, kick, bash, or anything else. I used the stun spell a lot
as a low level, because a CON mage with a wooden club does nothing
when it comes to damage. If were are gonna make stun cost more mana
or weaker, then why don't we do that to all spells? Geez ... some
spells can do lotsa damage. Then, we can make kick weaker, then
alter how headbutt works, and make weapons do less damage.
Stradivari
From: Lethargio
Friday, April 25, 12:56AM
yes, I know...but were talking about how dex mages are too strong.
if a dex mage and dex sniper would to fight (with same amount of hps)
the sniper would have practically no chance against the mage. Just how
a con fighter would die against a con mage...I see a conflict with
killing mobs kind of people and pkill kind of people...if you make stun
strong it would screw up pkill, if you make it too weak, i would screw up
the non clanned...I don't know how this would be ever solved...
From: Claudia
Friday, April 25, 01:42AM
Umm, lethargio, have you ever tried pkilling with a high mind dex mage?
it's almost impossible to even reach 100mind/dex in the first place, and
keep all spells at the same time. Secondly, have you ever tried killing a
dex/perc fighter as a mage? The smart ones usually hit and flee, if you
miss a stun when they flee, you waste mana, and are delayed for 1 to 2
rounds. Stun, imho should be more powerful with the more mind you have,
ie. 100mind should produce a stronger stun against a 20mind person, than
a person that stuns with 50mind. Mages are also vulnerable when they have
no mana left, a problem which doesn't affect non-mages obviously. And one
other thing, when trees eventually come, dex mages won't have as many hp's
as they might have now, unless they change to con, or sacrifice mind for
additional con, and stun is going to change aswell, most likely for the
good of the non-mages.
- Claudia
From: BokChoy
Saturday, April 26, 04:05AM
Claudia hits it on the mark.
the problem with stun is that if you try it after the person has left
the room, you lose mana, and you get skill delay.
with headbutt, people can just keep pressing the !! key over and over
and have no fear of skill delay or mana cost.
i do want to say that i have fought as stunbait before, back when i had
75 mind and was fighting some 100 mind people. the key to pkilling
isn't getting in a stun. the key is avoiding the other person's stun.
if you keep getting stunned, then you should probably try some new strateg
because there is a way around everything.
also, the most annoying thing for me has always been fighting the
high con fighters who warcry me and kill me with the paralyze.
if you think about it, pkill on this mud is also more about luck than it
is about skill. it is about who gets in a paralyze. well, maybe it's less
about luck now that we don't have sanc and the wells have been removed :P
thankd God for that.
irony@
From: Arsene
Saturday, April 26, 05:18AM
Interesting topic. Speaking as a 20 mind dex/sniper who has taken on the
100mind dex monsters it is tough. Threshold is right when he says that ou
attacks heave been weakend, numerous snipe weakenings have gone in. backs
occasionally paralyzes but it is only a combat initializing special. H
eadbutts suck(I am about 3 for 25 recently) because mages can tumble and h
eadbutt as well as a fighter char ca warcry is not very reliable either
If a mage gets in a stun on you he is pretty much garunteed the damge cap,
and against a char that has no use for mind over 20 the mage is garunteed
a stunfor only 20 mana which is oh 1/25 of a low mana mages's mana
a stun fo very little mana
Currrent pkill when fighting a cause mage requires luck and a tulsi almost
It wouldnt hurt to make the mana cost a bit higher. as for non pkill mage
it doesnt take to long to regen mana.
With blind and stun being certainties for mages vs warriors a little balan
would not hurt, after all it is the warrior class that has been hurt by
most fixes anyways.
From: Lethargio
Saturday, April 26, 08:01AM
Claudia:
Hmm, I dunno but i've been able to kill warriors, or at least
do some bit of damage to them, but on the other hand I get wasted
by high mind mages and only do about 100-150 hps at the most...
and frankly missing because the person is fleeing doesn't really
make a difference when you can stun them soon as you enter the room
and keep him stunned to the end of the fight (happened to me once,
got stunned over and over again)
Well, I don't know...lets see what changes the trees bring in
and complain after that
From: Lethargio
Saturday, April 26, 08:07AM
well you gotta keep in mind all the other things mages have...
break trance, damage spells that does tons of damage, blind,
recall, cure serious wounds...geeze, how are we suppose compete
with that kind of stuff?
From: Lagmonster
Saturday, April 26, 12:53PM
I think I agree with Irony in that pk seems to be a matter of luck
more than anything else. Granted that me running into a mage and/or
somebody with 200hps more than I do most usually spells death for me,
it doesn't take too long for me to even out the odds with a single
paralyze, be it from a headbutt or a warcry.
To have pkill based entirely on skill and stats would be silly--it'll
take out the unexpected part of pk, like me doing less than 100 pts
from 300 to 60 (my hps) and then doing 400 while at 60...
But I think we could do without stuns that last longer than 2 rounds,
especially when we're stabbing at each other with 9 attacks and all.
Or even make certain normal attacks possible to stun/wake mobs--bludgeonin
for example, should be more stun-inducing than stabbing, which will be
more waking. (think whips will be most effective at waking)
With a single stun taking away at least 60 points, and over a 100 when
raging and with specials, it'll only take a 5 round stun to finish
most people off... and when mages can land a stun almost for granted
(at least if they initiate combat) stun should be downgraded, at
least not to allow carry-over stuns.
From: Beam
Saturday, April 26, 09:48PM
It all goes back to how its easier to make a nonmage.
Starting this mud as a new char making a new mage and learning words
and balancing stats is much harder than making a surgeon or sniper
in my opinion. If i was just a plain old barfighter from the 19th
century i wouldnt mess with any 1000 year old mages :P
From: Lethargio
Sunday, April 27, 07:07AM
hmm so thats the problem, mages are harder to make therefore they
should be stronger then, guess thats whats throwing off the balance
...
From: Lagmonster
Sunday, April 27, 08:09PM
given the rate in which people can make characters, and the ratio
of hours spent creating vs. using, i think balance should never include
how harder it is to create a certain type of character.. at least not
to the degree here. Besides, I would think that time spent creating
either type of character would be rather balanced, since getting eq
takes about half the time of creation anyway.
From: Lethargio
Monday, April 28, 11:09PM
one more thing I think is throwing off the balance is mages that
can actually alter stats...such as the str spell, a mage wouldn't care
if he/she was at 20 str because they can always cast a str spell,
or if the person was a str fighter they could just stay at 90 str and
cast str on themselves to save some stats for other things
(what if someone casts a weaken spell?, well its almost if not
a better risk to take than being clumsied)
and mages also have idiocy, weaken, clumsy...some things that
a non-mage wouldn't have access to.
well anyways, what I wanted to say was that mages get a better deal
concerning stat wise, in my opinion...they shouldn't be able to add
some str to themselves just because their mages...
Leth
From: Pegasus
Tuesday, April 29, 04:51AM
Druids can clumsy, idiocy, weaken, and strength themselves, what's
your point? Should everyone be mages by default? Will that make the game
more balanced? Think about it, make use of what you've got and you can
start complaining when the skill trees arrive, because i can't see any
changes relating to spells and skills coming before then, apart from
new spells :P
Peg
From: BokChoy
Wednesday, April 30, 07:37PM
hey, lethargio, ANY character can have access to idiocy, weaken,
and clumsy. and they can use a special to
do it.
From: Lethargio
Wednesday, April 30, 10:16PM
hmm, like throw maybe? yeah, sure that hits ALL the time, and it doesn't
cost any rent either :P
well, i'm gonna start complaining after the trees arrive, probably would
be better then (i hope)
From: McDougan
Saturday, May 17, 12:34PM
BLOODY HEEL! I hev a veery good coonshtetoosheen froom me drinkin, boot VE
From: McDougan
Saturday, May 17, 12:36PM
BLOODY HEEL! I hev a veery good coonshtetoosheen froom me drinkin, boot VE
VEERY< VEEERY< VEERY low deshteeritchy! I hev eightchy peershent o' me ma
maximoom mind, nnd I be teerified t' shtun becooshe itch cauld bachlash nn
nnd thnn I wauldna flee in time. Shoot
oop ye bashteerdsh!
From: McDougan
Saturday, May 17, 12:46PM
by th' way, I shee a multichibubble round shtunnin mebbe unshe a day atch
th' mosht
From: McDougan
Saturday, May 17, 12:48PM
BY TH" WAY< EEEF I SHEE UN MOOR BLOODY SELF_CENTEEERED P_KEEELER< WHO NEEE
NEEEVEEER WAULD TINK EEENYUN ELSHE WAULDNA PKEEEL< I WEEEL.. er.. d' shoom
shoomthin, ne'er ye doobt.
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