An Open Forum on the Future of LegendMud

The following is the log of an open forum on "the future of the mud" held the night of 7/8/95. This log has been edited to remove extraneous material not pertinent to the discussion. The various parliamentary stuff with ceding the floor and so on has also been edited out.

The first half of the discussion focuses on the issue of roleplaying and the second half of the discussion, which was focuses on the issue of the mud as a virtual society and community, and how to (and whether to) establish rules of behavior and facilities for thinking of it in that way.

Two other related documents are an essay written by Greebo on ethics in a virtual environment, and another a letter written by Bay_El-Lor in response to this meeting and discussion.

PTAH: Anyone standing, have a seat, there are chairs here. Just SIT CHAIR. Or sleep chair if you wanna be REALLY comfy.

OK, may as well start. Lemme tell you why I'm doing this--just had a LONG talk about differing views of where the mud is heading and where it has come from with Charity. I'll fill you in on where I think it is heading and what I think can be done with it, but I'd sort of like your impressions of it. One thing I'd like to bring up from the very start is that this discussion should not focus solely on game mechanics, because that is not where the core issues lie. If no one minds, I will act as arbiter and people can raise hands to speak. And people can cede the floor when they are done :)

Kiera quickly proceeds to filibuster the whole damn thing.

FARSLAYER: I want to say quick about all i do is mud and do consulting work. I have literly played all the muds out there. This is as good or better than sneezy 3.1 has everything. You can play smart here seperate mobs with throw ride horses ect no muds have that out there. I am awed by the work that has gone into this. As for where it is going i will listen :)

PTAH: Someone else want to comment, or raise another point? Raise hands please.

SEIN: I was wondering, are you going to put in new time eras when the ones we have start getting too crowded?

PTAH: New eras? Or areas? We plan to keep adding areas continuously. There is a LOT of room for more within the existing framework.

Sein points out that Industrial covers a lot of prime real estate already that could be used again in a modern setting.

PTAH: Many times the issue of prehistory and future has come up, and I think we've got lots with the present canvas. Actually, you'll be seeing more modern areas.

Sein nods her agreement with Ptah. Sein smiles happily.

WRAITH: if you go with prehistoric, you would have to figure out where the continents are at the time

PTAH: And all there is is dinos :) That's all people want.

WRAITH: *nod* and small animals

PTAH: Someone else want to comment in general, before we get detailed?

BAY_EL-LOR: I have a thought...I agree with Sein and Farslayer...The Mud is extraordinary .. You're pushing the boundaries of programming ..The natural extension is more developed rp. That's it--no argument, no big deal.

Farslayer chuckles politely. Farslayer nods solemnly. Crowe looks up into the sky and ponders. Farslayer nods solemnly. Crowe nods his agreement with a sea-worn mariner. Ptah wonders if he might interrupt there then.

PTAH: I've spent a LOT of time encouraging rp here.. As those of you who have been around know. I now feel pretty happy that probably half the players we have rp to some extent pretty much all the time... Which means it is probably self-sustaining now. I feel that within the game framework there is not yet enough reward for doing so--and whether there should be is another debate we can touch upon later. However, since gameplay and rp have both been established on the mud now, I am very concerned with the use of the mud as a social, educational, conversational environment and resource. And wonder what you think about that.

A sea-worn mariner cheers wildly! A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely. A sea-worn mariner smiles at you.

KEIKO: I'd like to say something there. Both my roommates left the mud because they had to kill stuff to progress. The most computer illiterate of the two is learning tons now on mushes, and is becoming a dedicated player because she gets openly rewarded for rp. I know that they'd play here if they could progress without the killing that I personally enjoy manipulating.

Sein nods her agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

PTAH: Comments on MUSH-style rp judging or peer judging, XP rewards for such, etc?

FARSLAYER: it's been almost imposibble for me to play my alignment till now.

CROWE: Well, bear with me since I've no experience with MUSHes...Well, what I would like to know is... How such rewards would be judged, or rated or some such thing, Er, that is...How one would determine what kind of rewards come from certain types of RP.

PTAH: Any mushers on who care to elaborate, or shall I skim the subject?'

FLAGG: All I've ever seen is a judgement system.

PTAH: I guess I will elaborate. All such systems I know of exist ONLY on pure rp mushes. Places where fights are done with emotes.

BAY_EL-LOR: Wait, wait .. Why complicate the programming ..we have a sophisitcated promgramming system ..Shouldn't this be grounded in us?

PTAH TO BAY_EL-LOR: That is what is meant by judging. Peer judges or immortal judges, usually.

KEIKO: I just realized what we do with the live action rp group I'm with. We go, we play, we have fun, and we submit in writing what we do, along with witness verification. It's judged and then we get xp beads.

SEPH: I don't think moving to full rp would be so good. That's limiting too in its own way... But there are a few things that would encourage it more within the system that exists now... More exp for quests. More for the area exploration (which is nice now) and moving to the skill system that lets you go up for use.

Ptah interjects that this mud will never be 'full' anything.

WRAITH TO PTAH: It'll never fully be fun? Wraith sniffs sadly.

KEIKO: Well I wouldn't want it to be full rp either. I just htink that if a system for advancement was set up that allowed for rp exp. it wouldn't hurt the mud. Only the people that wanted it would put the effort into it. And as for areas... Area explore xp would just get exploited if there was more of it with out having more areas, same for quests. More quests is the answer, not more xp for the quests we have.

KIERA: Oo! Oo! Mr. Tahter! Mr. Tahter!

CROWE TO KIERA: Tahter?

PTAH TO KIERA: Yes, Horseshack?

Seph notes that there are lots of quests and many of them are not completed by many people and shuts up cuz it is not her turn.

KIERA: It seems that a combination that would take advantage of what we already have in place would take classes like merchants and thieves, and give thenm xp for their trade based upon monetary standards, while making them poorer fighters, wizards could create spells, etc and get xp.

BAY_EL-LOR: We're caught between experience and rp .. As long as we go on thinking in terms of ex .. We'll be stuck in a model .. Constrained by the programming. I think we need to strike a balance .. Between the mud programming .. and the rp world ..Perhaps assign a fixed amount of experience to be given by GM's each month?

Limerick notices a lot of agreement on this point.

PTAH: Sein, before I give you your turn, let me clarify a few things. First, Bay is absolutely right that there is conflict between rp and XP. Any one of you who has used praise or been praised for no reason at all illustrates the point. The traditional MUSH system does not use XP, hence the judging is done on abstract terms. Someone recognized as a good rp'er is elevated in socil standing, NOT in 'levels'. Eventually, they become a judge themselves. This is done either through peer acclamation, meaning each of you could award rp points to each other. OR by immort judges who do little else but come when called and judge how good you guys are at it. But I might also point out that we already HAVE a medium and even a process for this. The Expies and the LT. And we have even gone thru it once. Embarrassingly, I won, which is a little self-defeating as far as I am concerned.

A sea-worn mariner bonks Ptah on the head!

PTAH: OH--LT, the mud newsletter. And Expies, the annual mud awards, which include rp categories such as best male and female rpers. And also, let me remind you, cause I want to get there eventually, rewards for citizenship. This talk is being logged for historical interest and for later LDL publication btw.

WRAITH: give people some base number of RP points which they could keep or expend by giving them to others?

SEIN: Well, Bay somewhat covered my point, except that I would suggest a monthly 'judging' of rp in different categories, with good rewards for the winners. People could vote openly in the LT for the winners.

Ptah interjects that voting, we discovered last time, was a slow and tiring process.

SEIN: Then just have a panel of judges select the winners.

CROWE: Well, as Ptah mentioned, the Expies were an organized event to judge RP... And I would be among the first to say that we'd need a more frequent occasion than the Expies... To obtain the level of RP we are talking about here... So the question now becomes... How formal or informal are these events... Who do we pick as judges and how to we determine that they are good judges... And will it be an organized event...

Farslayer finds it difficult to RP here not knowing anyones profession.

CROWE: Or spur of the moment, whenever the emotions strike?

SEPH: I just wanted to say pretty much what they already did... You have to do something more than once a year for it to be worthwhile...and last time's winner might make a good judge... Or one could set up a new level of immorts for judges. Or a panel chosen by the players... And it might be fun to do such things as games like recall tag...even with other things besides exp as rewards.

Seph would play for string coupons and those encourage rp.

KIERA: My concern is that the implementation of any drastic changes for RP would already over tax our dedicated imps

Kiera winks suggestively at Ptah.

KIERA: So How do we add to the existing system and not change it utterly. I think ya could reward everything from new skills, to new spells, to new money (revenue) sources to other stuff, to those who approached ya with any ideas.

SABROSA: Good ideas.

Ptah interjects that we get flooded with ideas all the time, and we'd be giving away a heck of a lot of levels.

CROWE TO PTAH: As you pointed out, MUSH-like environments and the like deal in abstracts... And while I personally love RP and practice it at all times... And would love to see it grow here... We have to remember that this is first and foremost a MUD... And what I am wondering is... How well does the game the way it currently is mix with more abstract themes? It is unlike anything currently in place. Plus... I would tend to say that anything judged by other players... Would fall under and be swayed by personal biases.

PTAH: OK, a couple of things then. Yes, any system whereby rp is rewarded with XP is vulnerable to abuse--I might add, I would feel uncomfortable with players OR immorts running around as judges. Not to mention that the immorts sort of lack the time. So my first question to you, first of several I will pose here for discussion now, is:

Would you enjoy setting up a voting system all by yourselves, reported results in the LT, for no tangible reward, or at most a strung item or two? I.E. hard code nothing, officialize nothing?

My second question relates to the statement made by Crowe about how it matches nothing here. There are in fact many features added recently and in fact in the more distant past to encourage it. So my second question is, how do you like the features such as the OOC, player descs, and eloquence, and how effective are they at fostering rp for you, given that it was abit of a thematic battle to get them put in at all.

Sabrosa likes everything on the second question thing.

PTAH TO SABROSA: Others have the floor, but you can applaud when THEY say it.

Ptah grins evilly. Limerick gives a round of applause. Limerick jumped the gun. A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes looks amused.

KEIKO: Well first off before the questions, crowe said that players would judge with personal bias, and I'd like to add that immorts would too. Then for the questions Ptah posed...

Crowe really meant EVERYONE.

KEIKO: I already suggested to Rus offering rewards for interesting submissions to the LT. I think that adding things for rp awards would be fine. I get by well enough in the system to think coupons would be a fine enough reward for rp. Because I have fun roleplaying.

Sabrosa applauds a lithe wild-eyed girl's quick thinking and good judgement. Limerick applauds keiko for no apparent reason other than to type something on his keyboard

KEIKO: But in terms of other players, and the mud as a whole, I still think that there would be a way to incorporate those that are not good at exploiting the system here. Be it xp for rp, or just boons like Kiera suggested for merchants and tradespeople. I think we lose players this way, but then we can't be everything for everyone so what all do you want to be... and for hte last question posed by Ptah...

KEIKO: I think that the work done for the mood system, the ooc lounge, the player desc's -- all of it is wonderful. I especially like taking advantage of the descriptions and the mood system now. I think it's silly to argue about what else could be done with the time put into those efforts because the mud isn't static. It's changing constantly and always going to change. Just pick a new project and go on.

Seph shows her approval by clapping her hands together. A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes thinks he's gonna explode. A lithe wild-eyed girl shrugs helplessly.

Kiera coughs loudly.

KIERA: Ahem. Ok, I think folks who go so far as to develop RP lines, stories, ideas, etc, are gonna want more than a coupon string.

Seph shakes her head. Crowe shrugs philosophically. Sabrosa would like to know what Kiera would suggest as reqwards. Flagg nods solemnly.

KIERA: So, I think a system whereby Imps could receive written rp ideas for skills, spells, moneymaking schemes would go a long way towards encouraging a lot of effort oijn tbe part of a lot of folks (sorta like area proposals).

Ptah interjects that this once again puts the burden on the immortals of judging things.

KIERA: I know we are dealing with Imp time availablity... I don't trust players... Someone has to have final say, and I think that's what the umps are for.

Ptah also mentions that we already GET ideas for skills and spells and everything else, and often they make it in too :)

KIERA: The point being is that the reward is that the people who suggest and work on the development of spells and skills get them, not that they get coded into the mud for all. I guess like building on a mush , or moo, or whatever. I like killing things, and to answer the second question, I love all the "niceties" that have been done to promote socializing rp expression, but we were discussing mush stuff, and it seems to go beyond that sorta stuff.

PTAH: If I may interrupt--first, it is a MAJOR time issue to do that, second, we've always added ideas we thought were good, third, I am not sure it is actually rp related.

Ptah counts adding such things as game improvement and not necessarily rp.

Seph didn't understand the second to last comment about those who suggest getting and would like kiera to explain?

BAY_EL-LOR: This is hard .. Because it goes back to Crowe's statement that this is primarily a MUD...

Ptah knew we'd get back there sooner or later.

Crowe shrugs helplessly. Farslayer nods his agreement with Ptah. Limerick gives a round of applause.

BAY_EL-LOR: I don't think is this a MUD is really what's up when you can go from 1-40 in a mmater of days.

Limerick nods his agreement with a sea-worn mariner. Sabrosa sighs loudly.

BAY_EL-LOR: And if we're thinking about decentralizing, off the gods .. Then what we need is a new value system, like when the proposal for revising the banks came up .. Suppose we were to assing x experience points to platey per weeek, to be assinged to a gm or not, as player decided .. And thereby to be awarded-- You make everyone a player int he experience system .. Just a hypothesis--not hierarchical, non-centralized, and ultimately rp based--

Crowe personally thinks RP is its own reward. Seph nods her agreement with Crowe. Farslayer nods his agreement with Crowe.

BAY_EL-LOR: Because if I meet Keiko one day, and she does amazing rp, I give it all to her, for instance.

PTAH: So a system whereby say judges get given one rp point per tick to distribute to good stuff they see, and it turns into XP when they award it. Or some such.

A sea-worn mariner nods his agreement with Ptah. Crowe looks very confused.

BAY_EL-LOR: Like that, I s'pose .. Or a fixed amount per player ..

LIMERICK: First, a poem:

there once was a fellow named ptah who patiently ponders the law but these stupid seats are such stupid bleeps that now my butt cheeks are raw

A lithe wild-eyed girl giggles. Farslayer rolls around on the ground with laughter. Seph giggles. A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes giggles. A sea-worn mariner faints.

PTAH: Have you met Dusty?

LIMERICK: Not yet.

A lithe wild-eyed girl pets Limerick lovingly. ParticleMan grins evilly. Limerick bonks himself on the head and looks sheepish. Seph smiles at Limerick. Crowe giggles at Ptah. Limerick giggles.

LIMERICK: As for the first question ptah posed, I think that the voting system... For rp might be good if stuff like coupons are given out. Those types of items are not as consequential as others and would render any biases harmless... Biases in a VOTING system would delegitamize the system itself... I don't know what else you would offer... Also, i agree with crowe that rp is its own reward. It's a break from the total killing that you need for levelling because i know it's possible to level without doing any quests except for stats.

Ptah interjects that for the most part, the voting for the expies last time seemed overall pretty good. Ptah did of course win a silly amount of them, so he is biased too :)

LIMERICK: By the way, I wasn't here for the expies.

SATSU: Ahem... First: I have to qualify this by saying that I am still a kind of newbie here. Second: I would like to talk to Martin after about his method of levelling 1-40 in a few days :)

Ptah snickers softly. Crowe snickers softly. Ptah informs you that it is in almost every case, sheer expert playing and a huge amount of knowledge of the system, i.e. repeat players. Seph notes that good rolls help.

SATSU: Third: The problem with rewarding RP with Exp or what have you is that you run into players that don't WANT to Rp. I have run into this on my MUD, If players wanted strict RP, they'd play a Mush. I think that this MUD offers a good balance. That's why its been as successful as it has (and frankly its why I play here).

DAISY: But surely what we are after is the POSSIBILITY of rp.

PTAH TO SATSU: Out of curiosity, what IS your mud?

SATSU: I think to do either: Force RP on people, or Not give the opportunity, defeats the purpose of the MUD.

SATSU TO PTAH: Dimensions...I IMP with Taran.

SATSU: I agree with giving the opportunity to RP. But not in rewarding it with any tangible reward. RP, should be its own reward.

Farslayer nods solemnly.

PTAH: If I may ask, what about player acclamation by votes and so on in the LT, done purely out of a desire to recignize the good rp'ers? With no rewards, I mean, but the mention of the name.

SATSU: I have no objection to that.. In reference to what people were saying about submitting things to the MUD to be implemented. I have this to ask... I'm not experienced here, but what we do is: We have a project account on our machine..Do you have something like that here?' Its a account that players can mail things into.. All the gods have access to it...And it just allows the gods to go through all the ideas at their own leisure.

PTAH: Either of my personal email accounts, [email protected] and [email protected], the LDL forum, and also the IDEA command.

SATSU: You do have the idea command... But ..well, it never caught on with us. I'm just trying to brainstorm.

PTAH: The best ideas have come from personal talks or from the LDL. Which is a spectacular resource. Or, from meetings exactly like this one.

SATSU: That's what we get as well.

Seph notes that immorts DO listen.

PTAH: Heh, you can lead an immort to an idea, but you can't make him drink.

A lithe wild-eyed girl giggles. Farslayer giggles. Seph giggles. A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes smirks.

CROWE: Okay, first of all, Satsu said much of what I had in mind, in that... Those who are here who already RP do so because they -enjoy- it, and find it rewarding in its own right. I can't help thinking... That RP that is done through motivation by other players and/or immorts would be, for a large part, uninspired and not enjoyed much by the performers... Also... While bay's ideas make sense... I'm not sure such a technical system could be applied very well to something that is abstract such as RP...

Satsu shows his approval by clapping his hands together.

CROWE: And for another thing... A lot of the RP I have engaged in with others has been VERY sudden and unpredicted, making it very hard to monitor and judge... Unless we repeated it for an audience...

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes agrees TOTALLY with Crowe.

CROWE: So as Satsu said, I'm just not sure we can encourage others to RP more, though we can try, because RP is a very self-motivated thing.

Ptah is going to cut off discussion on this topic...

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes thinks that you have encouraged it VERY effectively to this point.

PTAH: My sense is this: RP can indeed be encouraged. But you do not want it officialized in any way.

Farslayer nods solemnly.

PTAH: You are willing to recognize rp'ers as has been done in the past.

A sea-worn mariner sighs loudly.

PTAH: But don't seem to want to get your butts off the ground to do it :)

A lithe wild-eyed girl peers at Ptah.

SEPH: Not at the expense of the mud system anyway.

KEIKO TO PTAH: What gave you that idea?

Crowe still thinks we need something more often than the Expies. Seph raises her eyebrow at Ptah. Farslayer nods his agreement with Seph.

PTAH: It is likely we will see more of it, but not necessarily anything like monthly votes unless one you gets enthused about that.

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes doesn't know what an Expie is..but..

PTAH: What gave me that idea is that you think the expies were good, but none of you are thrilled over the idea of running them monthly yourselves for no tangible rewards.

SEPH: If you are asking for volunteers to collect votes... I will.

CROWE: Well...The only way I see it happening is through nominations by outsiders.

Seph is somewhat confused.

PTAH: Actually, we did nominees by collectiong nominations from the most-submitted candidates.

BAY_EL-LOR: Don't say "I can't"--say, "in what way can I?"

PTAH: I am not saying can't at all. I am saying I'd love to see peer recognition of good rp.

BAY_EL-LOR TO PTAH: NOT YOU ..

CROWE TO BAY_EL-LOR: You sound like my manager.

PTAH: But I ain't gonna do it, you have to, and so the ball on this issue in entirely in your court.

A lithe wild-eyed girl got lost somewhere.

PTAH: Which seems to be where you want it.

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes is lost...with Keiko.

Crowe nods his agreement with Ptah.

PTAH: Which is why I am moving on to the next subject.

A lithe wild-eyed girl applauds your quick thinking and good judgement.

PTAH: One remark, thank you to Satsu for playing here, I am always tickled when imps and immorts from elsewhere play here.

SATSU: What can I say... It's a good mud.

Crowe smiles at a tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes. Farslayer is an Imp on 2 other muds :) A sea-worn mariner faints. Seph smiles at Farslayer.

KEIKO: There are other muds?

PTAH: OK, now, because this other subject is near and dear to both my heart and his, I'm going to ask Bay_El-Lor to speak first, but let me frame the questions. I dunno how many of you have read Seph's interview of me in the LT?

Crowe nods his agreement with you. A sea-worn mariner nods solemnly.

PTAH: Half of it anyway.

SEPH: Hmph.

Farslayer read it

Seph notes that the interview left her NAME out, but ptah didn't.

Wraith nods his agreement with Seph.

PTAH: Oops.

A sea-worn mariner thinks that Seph deserves recognition. Farslayer chuckles politely.

SEPH: Tis ok.

Seph smiles at Ptah.

PTAH: Well, since I blew it, how about a hand for her anyway?

Seph smiles at a sea-worn mariner. Seph is avoiding recognition Farslayer claps for Seph approvingly. Seph grins evilly. Crowe applauds Seph's quick thinking and good judgement. Wraith applauds Seph's quick thinking and good judgement. A sea-worn mariner cheers for Seph - huzzah!

PTAH TO SEPH: Too late.

Wraith smiles at Seph. Seph blushes bright red.

PTAH: OK. so let me get to the actual subject. I tend to think of muds in general and especially this mud as being not just games and not just rp environments, but also societies.

Crowe nods his agreement with you. A lithe wild-eyed girl nods solemnly.

PTAH: You've heard me rant about ethics in a mud framework, I'm sure.

Ptah chuckles politely. Farslayer nods solemnly. A lithe wild-eyed girl giggles. ParticleMan nods solemnly.

PTAH: And about countless other things as well.

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes hasn't but...

PTAH: I think this third side of the server (I am shifting off of the term mud purposely here), the social side, which includes the educational side, etc, is very important.

A man wearing a #23 Bulls jersey applauds Ptah's quick thinking and good judgement.

PTAH: If we talked about MUDs and MUSHes before, this is MUCK territory here. Not only this meeting but others, and earlier events ranging from the Halloween scary stories night held around a bonfire right here, to Dominic's excellent talk on military life as a medic, are about that social aspect. And of course the mud's theme lends itself to this aspect as well.

Seph nods solemnly.

PTAH: In the interview I make the point that in a sense a mud society cannot evolve a very long way because it relies upon immortals, upon imps, who perforce administer, maintain, and extend the system. All major changes must be filtered through them, and it is not an elected position. Here, anyway.

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes chuckles politely.

SEPH: Uh oh.

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes is having that problem on his mud. Seph cringes while pondering what is coming next.

PTAH: So my question to you is, how effective is this side of the system, from mud parties to ethics of interaction (are there any other kind of ethics?), and how might it develop further given that limiation? I'd like to ask Bay_El-Lor to speak first.

Ptah grins evilly at a sea-worn mariner. A sea-worn mariner looks up into the sky and ponders. Ptah lobs a slow easy one at ya. A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly. A sea-worn mariner wishes he hadn't been sipping rye all night.

PTAH: Yes, I actually spend waking hours thinking of this sort of thing.

You snicker softly. Seph chuckles politely at your feeble witticism. A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes thinks Ptah has too much spare time.

BAY_EL-LOR: I don't know what to say, rightly .. Except the forum here is underused ... We have an environment where, educationionally, theoretically, we can do most anything ... Clans are confined to mages, theives, warriors ... What if they proposed tougher challenges?

Crowe looks very confused.

BAY_EL-LOR TO CROWE: Crowe ... I know you're something of a detective .. What if every knight had to undergo a serious knight training quest?

NHOJ: Hmm...

BAY_EL-LOR: What if every secretive had to really learn something?

CROWE: Is this rhetorical or direct?

BAY_EL-LOR: What if the interaction between our groups .. Was more than casual .. Colleges play at model UNs .. Here we have the chance to play that game with real loves and lives .. Because when we can't agree, someone dies.

Ptah mentions that the design for the new martial arts system will be detailed enough and specific enoug hthat you will perforce learn about the differences between karate and tai chi, whether you want to or not :)

BAY_EL-LOR: I don't know what you were looking fo from me Ptah ...

PTAH TO BAY_EL-LOR: Thoughts, any thoughts. :)

KEIKO TO BAY_EL-LOR: Ethics...

BAY_EL-LOR: But as an interactive system, this seems to me to be way beyond anything we played with in high school .. Or college .. Or graduate school..

Crowe smiles happily.

BAY_EL-LOR: A chance to make from nothing something.

SEPH TO PTAH: There aren't THAT many of us ...why don't you open the forum enough crowe can ask questions, or answer?

KEIKO TO BAY_EL-LOR: For example the council you wanted to establish...

CROWE: Well...

A sea-worn mariner nods his agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

Ptah mentions that as a society, you do not NEED our permisssion to create social constructs

CROWE TO BAY_EL-LOR: First of all, i think things such as you mentioned regarding challenges for clans are really up to the GM. You could make every secretive learn things, if you wanted.

A sea-worn mariner shakes his head.

BAY_EL-LOR: I can't ...

CROWE TO BAY_EL-LOR: Why not?

A sea-worn mariner holds his tongue A sea-worn mariner looks up into the sky and ponders. Crowe shrugs helplessly.

BAY_EL-LOR: May I speak?

CROWE: Go ahead.

BAY_EL-LOR: Simply because I'm in a world, and I need the support of other GMs .. It's like a single employer paying employees more--it can't work alone.

KEIKO: But it can.

A man wearing a #23 Bulls jersey looks up into the sky and ponders.

CROWE TO BAY_EL-LOR: It really does depend on how you run things.

KEIKO TO BAY_EL-LOR: By setting a good example and strengthening one clan, the others will follow or fall.

BAY_EL-LOR TO KEIKO: We would hope so, wouldn't we?

KEIKO: Very much so.

PTAH: Um, I might mention that social structures are not limited to clans, or to unofficial rp clans, or such.

CROWE TO BAY_EL-LOR: The Knights DO only clan those that fit the knight profile, and have proven themselves in our eyes.

WRAITH: What if GMs could ostracize members as a punishment instead of just pkilling or kicking them out?

PTAH: We might as well discuss why nobody else volunteered for talks in this room after Dom did his.

A lithe wild-eyed girl peers at Crowe, looking him up and down. A sea-worn mariner peers at Ptah.

KEIKO: I thought you arranged the one with Dom, and wasn't it supposed to be first in a lecture series... Oh I'd like to say something else...

PTAH: Yes, it was. But despite an open call for more talks, nobody felt they could or would.

PTAH TO WRAITH: I'd add, why hardcode something that people can do themselves wqithout code?

A lithe wild-eyed girl can't imagine what she'd talk about. A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes will talk on multi-culturalism or languages any time.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Real life herbs? Programming? Your rp world?

KEIKO: Oh. Well ok.

PTAH: ANYTHING.

WRAITH: Because you could enforce the punishment without having to rely on members to follow through.

PTAH: We are talking about a chance for interaction far beyond the scope offered at even a university, in some ways.

A sea-worn mariner nods his agreement with Ptah.

PTAH TO WRAITH: Then is it a valid punishment?

KEIKO: So you are talking about use of ooc as a meeting place beyond the game?

Ptah shifts to Socratic method and cackles.

WRAITH: There's a poor communications system right now too.

SEPH: Why don't you give some examples Ptah.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Am I? My point is that WE define this.

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes nods his agreement with Ptah.

KEIKO TO PTAH: Oh ok well I want to say something.

SEPH: Our imaginations are limited.

WRAITH: You can't just post it on a board that so-and-so is to be ignored.

Ptah would actually rather people had their own examples.

CROWE TO PTAH: Thing is, just like RP, the players have to WANT that level of society. While most people do, there are those that really are just here to kill mobs.

PTAH TO WRAITH: Why not? It works in rl.

PTAH TO CROWE: Is that an obstacle for the rest of us?

CROWE: Not at all.

Ptah is quite serious about Socratic method here

PTAH TO CROWE: Then why is that an objection?

A tall muscular Swede with piercing eyes agrees with Crowe. Crowe didn't say it was. Crowe chuckles politely.

WRAITH TO PTAH: Because mortals can't post right now, they would have to use email which is outside of the MUD and not everyone would want to give out their email address.

PTAH: Well. Let me tell you that as a teacher, some of the most FUN times for me online have been talking about things.

CROWE: But there are many subtle levels of motivation.

PTAH: I've gotten a name for lecturing.

Ptah hangs his head. Seph nods solemnly.

PTAH: But I think that it is VALUABLE.

SATSU: I'll talk for a while on something...

PTAH: And in fact as valuable as the game.

SEPH: Er about fun times from talking.

PTAH: As valuable as the fantasies of rp.

Satsu nods his agreement with you. Seph has yet to leave ooc and is still having fun.

SATSU: But its only valuable to you.

PTAH TO SATSU: Is it? What do you think?

SATSU: What I mean by that statement is.. Different people place different values on different things.

PTAH: Hopefully, unless I am a totally pompous windbag, it's valuable to others as well.

SATSU: You and I may consider that of paramount importance.

PTAH: Oh, most assuredly. So my question then becomes the following:

SATSU: But to Maimer the Newbie, he may not care.

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: Is the mud here to satisfy the Maimer?

CROWE TO SATSU: I think Ptah's point is, those that DO place it in high priority have tremendous opportunities here.

PTAH: Do we regard it as valuable enough for enough people, that we wish to encourage it and the parallel things of ethics in gameplay and personal relations, and so on; if so, how do we encourage it.

KEIKO: The mud is here to give back what you put into it.

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: I'm not under the impression that the mud is here to satisfy any particular group of people ONLY..

SEPH: Why do you think the social aspects are being under-utilized?

PTAH TO SATSU: Correct. It is not. So another question I'd ask is, does the game aspect preclude this?

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: I thought it was here for all.. That is why we are having this discussion in the first place, is it not?

Crowe nods his agreement with Seph. A sea-worn mariner nods his agreement with Satsu.

SATSU TO PTAH: Thats a good question.

PTAH TO SEPH: The last time this room was used for a public meeting that was not rp was last october.

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: But preserving it for Maimer does not mean freezing it as it is.

KEIKO TO PTAH: In some cases I think so.

PTAH: Oh... There was an herbalism meeting in... February?

SEPH TO PTAH: But public meetings are not the only kind of social function

KEIKO TO PTAH: Some people will come here with the premise that this is entirely a game, and that is fine for them.

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: I TOTALLY agree... You have to foster the environment of rp, but not force it down everyone's throats.

Seph notes there are usually lots of people in ooc.

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: Oops... You have to foster that environment but not force it down everyone's throats.

PTAH: How many of them are hiding from pkill? Or going to talk privately one on one? Or here for the gift shop? We don't know.

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: *nod* there is a difference betweeen force and creative availability.

A sea-worn mariner nods his agreement with Ptah. Crowe thinks most people who WANT such things already practice them for the most part.

PTAH: Let me pose some examples and questions then.

KEIKO TO PTAH: They won't care about the rest of the aspects of the mud. The only problem is when their view causes trouble with others'

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: I think it important to foster this vulnerable environment..But not at the ...*shrug* I'm at a loss for words.

PTAH: 1) do you think the mud as a society needs more evolution or not, and is it ethical to foster such evolution at all.

2) would addition of features such as say online library reading and so on be detrimental or an example of such fostering.

CROWE TO PTAH: I believe the coming and going of people all the time is a kind of evolution in itself...

BAY_EL-LOR: Asking about evolving means we have already.

SEPH: I would like on-line library.

KEIKO: I think it can't help but continually evolve.

PTAH: 3) how much does this factor impinge upon thing like gameplay and rp which perforce depend on the bending of what we consider ethical.

Satsu nods his agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

SEPH: And i agree with Crowe - it evolves on it's own.

SATSU: What is the definition of evolution? Its simple.

Ptah leads up to his punchline here.

SATSU: You can't stop evolution. It happens on its own.

Satsu thought about it.

PTAH: I'd ask, what's the definition of SENTIENCE--which is, self-awareness.

A sea-worn mariner peers at Satsu, looking him up and down.

PTAH: And that is why I raise this issue.

Seph nods her agreement with Satsu. Satsu thought it would be best not to make a joke.

KEIKO: It's an interactive environment based on too many other peoples definitions of reality to avoid constant adaptation and mutation.

PTAH: Because I wondered how many of you were aware of this dimension at all.

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: You can impede evolution--and what we're asking is if we will ...

Crowe was. Seph nods her agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

SEPH: Of the social dimension?

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: Yes, you can.

Seph would be surprised if anyone wasn't.

PTAH: I think everyone is aware of it in a sort of plain way. E.G. we get to meet and talk. But how many think of it literally as a society?

SATSU: So then we're asking not if we should Foster evolution but if we should impede it.

BAY_EL-LOR: Legend is alive Ptah ..it's too late.

KEIKO: But see as an entity its going to have all aspects present to some degree or another. Classify them as whatever archetypes as you want to.

PTAH: Too late? Too late? It's never too late.

SEPH: Lots of them Ptah.

SATSU: It'll grow/evolve with or without fostering.

WRAITH: The nation of Legend!

Seph rolls around on the ground with laughter. A lithe wild-eyed girl giggles. Wraith whistles innocently to himself. Satsu rolls around on the ground with laughter. Seph smiles at Wraith.

PTAH: No--that is NOT actually ludicrous.

Seph hugs Wraith.

CROWE TO PTAH: I find that a person's level of RP and their social behavior go hand-in-hand. In other words, the extent to which they play their RL selves influences how much they use the MUD as a social tool.

PTAH: If we think of it in that way, then we need to think about things that have begun to happen. Like, the recent trial for example.

KEIKO TO CROWE: RL selves or rp selves?

PTAH: Until THAT, I never thought that this place was truly attempting to become a society.

SEPH: What trial?

CROWE TO KEIKO: Both.

KEIKO TO SEPH: Multiplaying trial.

ParticleMan looks up into the sky and ponders. Seph missed everything.

PTAH: Recently some players actually got a judge and a jury and held a trial with witnesses and a court over another player's alleged multiplaying.

Seph smiles at a lithe wild-eyed girl. Seph gasps in astonishment.

SEPH: Wow - outcome?

PTAH: If anything, the desire for a government, which is what that implies, means that this society is becoming self-aware.

KEIKO TO PTAH: Which I think was silly in some ways because I see other people do it all the time and never get nailed.

PTAH: And that means that it NEEDS to think NOW about what it wishes to be. Which is why I have been so focused on ethical issues lately.

Satsu nods his agreement with you. Seph nods solemnly.

WRAITH TO KEIKO: You have to get caught first.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Feel free to help us nail em.

Seph puts the discussion more in perspective.

KEIKO TO WRAITH: Caught by an imm?

Seph smiles at Crowe.

KEIKO TO PTAH: I have a moral obligation that somewhat precludes me from judging other people.

A sea-worn mariner bonks a lithe wild-eyed girl on the head!

WRAITH TO KEIKO: I think that might be best, it's hard to go just on hearsay.

SEPH TO CROWE: Missing info makes a difference... If the players don't run to the immorts for judging, what does that mean?

BAY_EL-LOR TO KEIKO: Oh you do not ..

PTAH: Well, that's a very good thing to know, and it means that an issue is whether that is a general feeling on the mud or not.

KEIKO TO WRAITH: Hearsay or witnessing it...

PTAH: Because that implies a very specific thing for the culture.

KEIKO: I think it is outright wrong. But I also think that players snitching on players is not a good environment to encourage.

A sea-worn mariner grumbles.

BAY_EL-LOR: Hearsay is bad--but hearsay by trial is better than executive authority ..

A lithe wild-eyed girl hates overstepping bounds of authority established for herself.

PTAH: Well, then perhaps the society to foster is one of "I'm too stinkin' PROUD to cheat'?

Seph nods her agreement with a sea-worn mariner. A lithe wild-eyed girl nods her agreement with a sea-worn mariner.

SEPH: Very interesting development.

BAY_EL-LOR: That's what Ptah is talking about ..the creation of society ..

KEIKO: Yes that would be utopic.

PTAH: Ah, hell, let's BE utopic.

Crowe thinks the MUD definitely does not lack for pride as it is.

BAY_EL-LOR: We're not good yet--but we evolved ..for a moment.

Ptah grins evilly.

SEPH: And almost possible in the mud world. This place discourages those who want it easy anyway.

Satsu notes that this is LEGEND mud, which is pretty close to UTOPIA mud.

KEIKO: It does discourage them, but it doesn't preclude that behavior.

Seph smiles at Satsu.

PTAH: Let me state that one reason why I state this is because I DO encounter many different attitudes towards the mud from different people.

SATSU: I can vouch for that Seph.

SEPH: No, but it does convince them to go away. And can more so.

SATSU TO SEPH: It discourages people who want an easy ride.

PTAH: And given a diverse populace, we need to have some sort of structure within which they can exist, be it by setting one attitude in primacy over others, or not.

Seph nods her agreement with Satsu.

SATSU TO PTAH: You're talking about defining peoples opinions.... Can you do that?

A lithe wild-eyed girl peers around the room intently.

PTAH: The other day a member of the community, one who is a citizen in long standing, made the statement that nothing on the mud could hurt anyone's feelings.

CROWE: A sort of structure of that nature already exists really.

A lithe wild-eyed girl looks at Ptah, boggled.

PTAH: That attitude is so incredibly alien to me and my impression of what can happen on muds, I was flabbergasted.

SATSU: That person is...Looney. But.. They exist!

Seph learned the hard way how much people on muds care.

KEIKO: Well you see they take it that way and project their perception enlightened or not onto the general populace.

A sea-worn mariner nods his agreement with Seph.

PTAH: And then we get people who will quit the mud over hurt feelings.

Satsu has had that several times on his mud.

PTAH: This mud gets VERY loyal players.

SATSU: TOtally!

BAY_EL-LOR: it's alive! dammit! It's alive!

PTAH: And I can say that almost uniformly, we lose players to only three causes.

SEPH: Everyone needs to grow up some ways, some times.

KEIKO TO PTAH: You see it is enlightened in some ways to perceive this as a game and to be able to keep separate the game world from the personality. And to view it as an outlet for some aspects of a personality.

SATSU: Loyal players...And if you hurt someone's feelings, sometime's they'll quit over it.

PTAH: One, a very very few have quit from boredom. Two a lot have moved or last access.

KEIKO TO PTAH: But it is unenlightened for them not to perceive that some people do not fully divest themselves when playing.

PTAH: The vast majority of people who leave Legend do so out of disgust with other people's attitudes.

A lithe wild-eyed girl nods solemnly.

PTAH: Either over cheating, over rp, over hurting feelings, whatever.

Satsu nods solemnly. Seph looks up into the sky and ponders.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Then THAT is a social precept we need to instill.

BAY_EL-LOR: And in this, Legend is like real life .. Only youcan't leave rl when it pisses you off.

KEIKO TO PTAH: But then you chose to transcend the bounds of game entirely.

Crowe shrugs philosophically.

PTAH TO BAY_EL-LOR: Tough philosophical question. Does that make leaving here more cowardly? Less so? Make this less of a commitment than RL? More of one?

SATSU TO PTAH: None of the above.

A sea-worn mariner sighs loudly.

SATSU TO PTAH: It's different.

BAY_EL-LOR: More .. much more.

KEIKO TO CROWE: In a way too many people get emotionally involved too much and in a way not enough get involved at all.

SEPH: Stay aware for awhile and then see how you feel.

Seph grins evilly.

SATSU TO PTAH: I think you're trying to compare apples and orange..

PTAH TO SATSU: Can you say the feelings are different? Disgust is disgust, hatred is hatred, love is love?

CROWE TO KEIKO: Everyone is different.

KEIKO TO CROWE: Rightfully so.

PTAH: Let me give you a situation.

Crowe nods his agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

SATSU TO PTAH: Sure, they're both fruit, but they also are quite different.

PTAH: This includes juicy good gossip.

A sea-worn mariner bows before Satsu. Seph listens in fascination.

KEIKO: Oooh.

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: You are an admirable foil ..I salute you,

A lithe wild-eyed girl peers around the room intently.

PTAH: The other day I got very very angry with a player that I regard as cheating. Others do not feel he was cheating.

Satsu salutes a sea-worn mariner briskly.

PTAH: He himself was the one who made the remark that it won't hurt anyone's feelings.

Satsu guffaws.

PTAH: Other immortals got very upset with me.

SEPH: And who should decide how other people *should* feel?

PTAH: Anyway, I was accused by other immorts of being high on my hobbyhorse.

A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely. Satsu looks confused. Seph giggles.

PTAH: I was told that in this case the cheating was not cheating for one technicality or another. And I was also told that others had done the same thing int he past and I had not objected, and therefore I was hypocritical. All of which made me madder, of course.

KEIKO: Ptah it is still a game and it is far too natural for people to desperately and creatively try to exploit the system. It's a big puzzle.

Satsu nods his agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

PTAH TO KEIKO: I have not reached the punchline... this isn't ABOUT that.

SEPH: Now i wanna know what KIND of cheating.

KEIKO: The goal is to figure out the best way to put the piece together.

Satsu listens carefully.

PTAH: What this is about is the mail I got later from someone.

A lithe wild-eyed girl waits patiently. A sea-worn mariner looks cautious.

PTAH: I quit out in anger, you see, saying that to my mind, anything that made someone play under a different system from his peers was cheating, and if it was done purposely and we ignored it, we were condoning the equivalent of theft. That we were legitimizing the attitude that if nobody is watching, steal. And I said that I did not know that I wanted to play somewhere where that was a prevalent attitude. And quit out. The email I got said in its first few lines, basically, 'If you are going to keep this up, maybe you SHOULD quit.

A sea-worn mariner is completely boggled.

PTAH: And argued that the mud would never be a perfect game nor a perfect society, so I should stop turning the mud into an armed camp over it.

Satsu is feeling the same as Bay.

PTAH: I was most angered over the accusations of hypocrisy.

A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly.

SATSU: It would anger me also...

PTAH: But finally concluded that they were CORRECT. I am still here, you see.

SATSU: I disagree.

A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely.

PTAH: I value the continuation of this society MORE than I value the principles that led me to make that statement. And therefore I am sacrificing those principles to stay on and keep working on the mud.

A sea-worn mariner hugs you.

KEIKO: Don't you see tho, you've sort of set yourself up as an aspect of the superego or conscience of the mud.

PTAH: If I were sticking by my guns, I would have resigned two days ago.

Seph hugs you.

SATSU: We're glad you didn't ptah.

PTAH: Well, so am I.

A sea-worn mariner sweeps you into a romantic waltz.

SEPH: Please don't leave.

KEIKO TO PTAH: And as such you tend to go to the extreme for your principles.

SATSU TO KEIKO: I totally agree with you.

BAY_EL-LOR: Nietzche said I want a god who dances ...

Satsu nods his agreement with a sea-worn mariner.

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: He did.

SATSU TO PTAH: What Keiko just said is vitally important.

PTAH: Well, then, the reason I tell this story is to illustrate that regarding the mud as a society is the ONLY reason to choose to sacrifice the principles.

KEIKO TO PTAH: I'm not judging (I never do that if I can avoid it) But you do need to learn to see things from the other points of view to remain sane. Not give in, not be a hypocrite, just get a better understanding of perspective.

PTAH: Yes, I know it is.

SATSU TO PTAH: You've set yourself up.

PTAH TO KEIKO: I hate to say it, but I do that more regularly than anyone I know. Otherwise, I would not have compromised the many OTHER times this same situation has arisen. I have set myself up, yes.

KEIKO: Then you need to find someone willing to share the responsibilites of that particular role.

SEPH: I disagreed with you about immorts not needing people-savvy.

PTAH: So my challenge to the mud if it is to develop as a society that I have just made that monstrous commitment to is this.

SEPH: I think if you weren't here to be the mud's conscious....

PTAH: Shouldn't there be some superego in all of you? Why do we rely on the executive fiat?

KEIKO TO PTAH: You can't be good at what you've chosen to do until you can perceive the other viewpoints.

SEPH: It would have disintegrated.

PTAH TO SEPH: Who would be?

KEIKO: I have plenty of superego silly.

PTAH: Ah, there's the rub. If it would have disintegrated, is it worth saving?

A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly.

SEPH: Yes!

PTAH: If it would have disintegrated, have I made my commitment erroneously?

SATSU: No you haven't.

PTAH: Because I DO NOT intend to be a superego all my life.

SEPH: Why should you think so?

KEIKO: I don't think it would disintigrate but it very well may reach a level of decay that you wouldn't be happy with personally

PARTICLEMAN: But doesn't every society have a central point that it revolves around???

PTAH: Most specifically--I came here vey annoyed over a debate over the future of the mud.

SEPH: I said would have... I don't think it would now...it's much bigger than a year ago.

PTAH: It hits home because I may have a full-time-plus job in a month. I ain't gonna be your central point no more. You will have to be. And that means that you all need to think about your society a little more.

SATSU: A central point doesn't have to be here all the time...:)

A sea-worn mariner sighs loudly. Seph sighs loudly.

PTAH: And I need to think about it a little less.

SATSU: Again we come to hierarchy..

PTAH: Or at least write up articles about this issues and make a name for myself.

Ptah grins evilly. A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely.

BAY_EL-LOR: Or a-heirarchy ..

Satsu nods solemnly.

KEIKO TO PTAH: That's it, find a way to turn this into a livelihood. For all of us.

SEPH: It would help if people outside the immort system were not threatened with losing what they can input.

BAY_EL-LOR: Order need not be executive ..

PTAH: Again, there cannot be NO hierarchy. It's inhuman, for one, and for another, on the net as yet not possible.

A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly.

SEPH: For example, the www and lt and discussion list.

SATSU: Bah HUMBUG. There is a hierarchy in ALL things.

PTAH TO SATSU: That is what I just said

SATSU TO PTAH: Right down to Nature... There is always hierarchy.

A sea-worn mariner chuckles politely at Satsu's feeble witticism.

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: Structuralist.

PTAH TO SATSU: My point was that on a mud in particular there is a heirarchy imposed by the necessity for tech people to keep the game running, for coders and designers to expand the system...

Crowe chuckles politely.

SATSU TO BAY_EL-LOR: Realist is what I am.

WRAITH: Even with true communism?

PTAH: It is a hierarchy imposed by the demands of the medium.

A lithe wild-eyed girl is completely boggled.

PTAH: Even with true communism, you're gonna get an alpha male leading the pack. Or alpha female :)

SATSU: No.

A lithe wild-eyed girl attempts to crush her anarchistic self for a moment. A lithe wild-eyed girl peers at Ptah.

SEPH: Somebody has to be in charge - but that doesn't mean that the contributions of those outside the hierarchy can't be accepted and valid.

SATSU: A hierarchy is not imposed by the demands of the medium... It is imposed by nature and man's need to participate in nature.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Anarchy just means the strongest one eventually wins out. Anarchy never lasts for very long.

A sea-worn mariner holds Ptah's head under water until he admits there's no alpha :) A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely. Ptah rolls around on the ground with laughter. Seph giggles.

KEIKO TO PTAH: An anarchy of true equals is nice though.

Satsu giggles.

PTAH: Hate to say it, but if there were no alpha, you guys would not be in this room.

A lithe wild-eyed girl giggles.

WRAITH TO SATSU: I'd have to say it was the system.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Find two true equals.

A lithe wild-eyed girl peers around the room intently.

SATSU TO WRAITH: I disagree. I think that .. Hierarchies exist everywhere.

KEIKO TO PTAH: Well it's a matter of perspective. One is on the sofa next to me asleep. You are one also. The world is filled with them.

SATSU TO WRAITH: They are neither the cause, nor the effect of the medium... They merely exist.

KEIKO TO PTAH: I'm one of those neutral sorts that attempts to transcend judgment.

PTAH TO KEIKO: That is discussion in the abstract. I am sure that there are things that you do better than they, and vice versa. All that remains is creation of a context favoring one or the other of you, and one will perforce be the leader.

A sea-worn mariner sighs loudly.

A lithe wild-eyed girl stifles the part of herself that says but of course I'll lead.

PTAH TO SATSU: When the server crashes and nobody is around to put it up, THAT'S what I mean by an imposed hierarchy.

WRAITH TO SATSU: If you didn't have immortals controlling what was being added to the MUD you would have chaos as each tries to dominate the others by making more powerful items and mobs.

A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely at Wraith's feeble witticism.

PTAH: The fact is, the people who lead a mud are NOT required to be good leaders.

BAY_EL-LOR: Leadership requires economic and social imabalance--the Mud precipitates hierarchy necessarily.

Seph nods her agreement with Wraith. Seph has seen that mud.

PTAH: There is a hierarchy imposed by other needs.

Crowe giggles at Seph.

SATSU TO PTAH: You've reverted to the MUD per gaming hierarchy... There is a hierarchy within the social aspect.

Ptah nods solemnly. A lithe wild-eyed girl nods her agreement with Satsu.

PTAH: Yes, there is.

Seph smiles at Crowe.

PTAH: Of course, there's no social aspect with no server.

You chuckle politely.

SATSU: True, when the mud crashes, that requires one of you guys.

Satsu chuckles politely at your feeble witticism.

PTAH: Well, then, who has final say on the whole shebang? You are arguing for input.

SATSU: We are limited by the confines of the server... But..

SEPH: You, dad-blast it.

PTAH: That ONLY happens when the leadership permits it. OK, well, you've all known muds where THIS talk isn't going to happen, correct?

WRAITH TO SATSU: Even MUDs which claim not to have 'gods' still have people who fill that function.

KEIKO: Well if the leadership didn't permit it do you think we'd stick around and play?

SEPH: Bleh

SATSU TO WRAITH: I agree.

PTAH TO KEIKO: A statement I made in the interview...

Satsu nods his agreement with a lithe wild-eyed girl.

PTAH: "There are any number of people willing to live under jerks"

A sea-worn mariner peers at Ptah.

KEIKO: Well fine they make that decision.

SEPH: I disagree.

Seph nods her agreement with Satsu. A sea-worn mariner wonders how to write a Mud .. Ptah shrugs philosophically.

PTAH: I can easily find examples.

KEIKO: People are perfectly capable of being responsible for their own actions

SEPH: You don't realize how much modifying value the rest of you have had.

Seph smiles at Wraith. A sea-worn mariner giggles at Satsu. A lithe wild-eyed girl peers at Satsu, looking him up and down.

SATSU TO PTAH: I'm sure you can.. But those people aren't people participating in a talk like THIS.

PTAH: Do you need one like my high school, Iraq, or Medievia?

KEIKO TO SATSU: What?

SEPH: High school is not choice

SATSU TO KEIKO: What?

PTAH TO SATSU: My point is that these people are here because I encourage and permit and even demand it.

SEPH: Would you stay at iraq or medievia?

PTAH: One must fight for such freedoms, they are not generally handed to one.

PTAH TO SEPH: I have a friend who lives in Peru. I lived there too, and cordially, it sucks.

BAY_EL-LOR TO PTAH: We're here because we're challenged, silly ..

PTAH: He is my equal in every way I can think of.

Seph thought you meant a mud

PTAH: He stays because he loves the country. I do not, I can leave.

KEIKO TO BAY_EL-LOR: That's for sure, we're challenged alright.

SEPH: Living places are not necessarily choice either.

Satsu nods his agreement with Ptah.

Ptah points to an analogous situation he described just a little ways back involving him and hypocrisy.

PTAH: Well, so here's the question. I'll pose it to Crowe.

SATSU: I have lived in Mexico, France, Spain, Russia, Canada, and Japan... And let me tell you...

PTAH TO CROWE: You really care so little about this place that you'd quit if the leadership changed?

SATSU: I have met all kinds of people that live places that I will NEVER go back, that love it there.

PTAH TO SEPH: Or you?

BAY_EL-LOR TO SATSU: Imagine a revolution, a civil rights movement, on a mud...

PTAH TO KEIKO: Or you?

PTAH TO SATSU: Or you?

Greebo looks up into the sky and ponders.

SEPH: That's not fair ptah.

WRAITH: The leader can have a great impact.

CROWE TO PTAH: No, I care so MUCH about it that I would quit under someone like that.

PTAH: Do you see why this is NOT an idle question?

KEIKO: I stay as long as my friends are here.

PTAH: Ah!

SEPH: Yeah i prolly would leave if you did... I don't think that counts.

PTAH: Then you've made the first steps towards a mud society, and I am happy.

Seph sighs loudly.

SATSU TO PTAH: I agree with crowe.

Greebo wonders if he can interject an idea.

PTAH: But ifyou believe that, of course, then you make every effort to prevent it.

Satsu nods his agreement with Ptah.

PTAH: And that implies instilling the same attitude in others... And we come full circle.

Satsu sighs loudly.

PTAH: Which is why I held this talk in the first place and raised these issues. You know what my reply said? To that email?

SATSU: We've now run ourselves in one GIANT circle.

Seph looks confused and unhappy.

GREEBO: If no option remained, I would leave. 'But before that, if this mud were under leadership which I disagreed with, I would make every effort to make life as miserable as possible for the new leader.

Satsu bonks Greebo on the head!

PTAH: "Yes, I care for this mud. I care too much to shut up." Shut up about society, about ethics, about cheating, about whatever. About ideas for expanding and extending the game. Shut up about CONTRIBUTING. And that there, that alone, is what I woyuld hope is the social goal here.

Satsu looks confused.

PTAH TO KEIKO: Even if it means snitching for the greter good. Or at least trying to get the criminal to grow up and accept the same idea.

A sea-worn mariner hugs Ptah. ParticleMan nods solemnly.

KEIKO TO PTAH: I'd sooner confront them and appeal to their sense of dignity.

WRAITH: If no-one contributes, won't it stagnate?

PTAH TO KEIKO: Please do.

A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly.

PTAH TO WRAITH: Haven't you seen that here in the past?

KEIKO TO PTAH: I already told a god.

Wraith nods solemnly.

PTAH: I won't start my civics lecture on relating this to your RL :)

Ptah cackles gleefully. A lithe wild-eyed girl thanks you heartily.

PTAH: Partly because I don't volunteer anywhere, nor do a damn thing. I think this is enough.'

SATSU: It is.

PTAH: Hopefully this gets people thinking at any rate.

WRAITH: I remember Sadist stating, when the mud first opened, that Legend would never leave beta stage.

PTAH: About everything from how you answer a newbie to what you do with a multiplayer and whether or not to hold a trial.

A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly. Seph STILL looks confused and unhappy and is not sure what the point was.

PARTICLEMAN: And I thought rl was hard...

PTAH: Simply this, Seph.

A lithe wild-eyed girl chuckles politely at Seph's feeble witticism. Crowe comforts Seph.

PTAH: I would hope that the social goal of Legend is to try to make life here better. Period.

BAY_EL-LOR TO PARTICLEMAN: This is real life ..

Seph smiles at Crowe. ParticleMan smiles happily. Crowe smiles at Seph.

PTAH TO BAY_EL-LOR: Exactly my point.

GREEBO: Uhm... Better than?

KEIKO TO GREEBO: Heh.

PTAH: Than it was five minutes ago.

Ptah chuckles politely.

SEPH: Didn't you already think it was?

SATSU: We're evolving people.

GREEBO: That should be the goal, whether it's virtual or r/l (refer to my essay).

A lithe wild-eyed girl shudders. Greebo grins evilly. A lithe wild-eyed girl sighs loudly. Seph doesn't think she's ever seen her, or Dylan, or Dr. make a suggestion that wasn't in hopes of making this world a better place - even the bad ones.

KEIKO: I still haven't written an essay.

SATSU: The mud will gradually make itself better. We're just trying to foster that process.

PTAH: And with that, I'll leave you, making two points. One, you all really missed out by not taking any of my classes, huh.

Crowe smiles at Ptah. A sea-worn mariner nods solemnly.

KEIKO TO PTAH: I'll take yours if you take mine. Hah!!!

SATSU TO PTAH: You're a teacher?

A sensuous beauty giggles. A lithe wild-eyed girl throws her head back and cackles with insane glee!

GREEBO: Drive on out to Baltimore and educate me, Ptah. :)

PTAH: And two, I've put up with a hell of alot of abuse, esp in the last few days, over this attitude, and I don't care if it is overly righteous, but this reasoning is the ONLY reason why I put up with it.