Posted by Gwalchmai on 07/27
Would it be possible to have the xp split with grouped charmies be as
?Fatale? suggested earlier, with say only a third or less of the xp going
to the charmies, and the caster getting the rest?
I don't mind at all sharing xp with another level 50 -player- because
another level 50 -player- almost -always- does more than a doppel or a
skeleton. Whether in terms of hitting or healing power. This assumes that
the player in question isn't going LD every 30 seconds. And even then
I don't mind because they're still providing company. (Though I've had
some people question my rather twisted idea of company.)
For angels/titans/demons, a 50/50 split would still be reasonable even
though I don't think they merit that much xp, but for charmies such as
doppels or zombies, that rarely connect, even when dressed and ready to
go, it would be nice if the xp split was reduced. I don't mention skeleton
since they cannot be dressed or wield.
If doppels/zombies could actually get the maximum attacks from a weapon,
then the xp split would be justified, and the method effective, and not
overpowered, since they still cannot use specials, etc. BUt as it is, it
seems to me that they are taking far more xp than is due to them.
Gwalchmai ap Lot
From: Gwalchmai
Sunday, July 25, 05:38AM
Make that "if doppels/zombies could get max attacks from weapons IF
decked out in enough stat eq to make them qualify for the weapon skills
neccessary to use the weapon wielded".
Gwalchmai ap Lot
From: Kildare
Sunday, July 25, 05:54AM
Well said Gwalchmai :)
Besides, did it occur to anyone that if an ungrouped
charmie got the killing blow in, the mage got no xp at all?
That was a risk a mage took, so I can't quite understand
why the situation was considered -so- unfair?
But then, what do I know about magic, I am just a humble
surgeon :P ;)
Kildare
From: Ariel
Sunday, July 25, 09:20AM
Having the charmie get the killing blow was a risk, sure, but
considering how little damage charmies do in comparison to most
players, it wasn't actually a huge risk. And you made so much xp
so quickly anyway that if you lost a kill, it was pretty much like, oh wel
well, next.
From: Croaker
Monday, July 26, 12:35PM
I think this would be fair if you were tanking for the charmie :)
Seems to me that, while you may be doing most of the offensive
work with certain charmies, they usually do the bulk of the defensive
work, and probably deserve at least half the xp.
Croaker
From: Auriel
Monday, July 26, 01:17PM
Charmies may do the bulk of the defensive work, but still not as well as
having another player tank. They can't rescue, and using them as
tanks limits how much you can go agg. Even a greater summoned
is not as worthwhile a groupmember as a real player, at any level.
From: Infidel
Monday, July 26, 06:41PM
A doppel doesn't do any damage until loaded with eq, you can't
stun or headbutt or the mob will turn so only good for some
character types. When not grouped they'll take all the xp
if they get the final blow and probably in the right proportion
being every few mobs. They aren't worth using now unless you
go to even more trouble rescuing/fleeing or something.
Will they be made unrescuable and uncalmable next?
From: Davien
Tuesday, July 27, 02:52AM
I guess my views on this subject are pretty well know, but let me
restate them anyway. Create mages give up a whole lot of stuff in
order to be able to cast their spells. Basically they can choose oNE
of HP, damage, or hitroll/flee, else their creations lose some of their
effectiveness. Their creations are the most mana intensive spells in
the game. They sacrifice ease of levelling in order to get words
for spells, and even if cast levels are a myth, which I personnally
doubt, there has been no evidence from anyone to quantify their
effect. The damage their spells can do in combat is not great. It has
been said that create mages should only expect to get good damage
spells for a LoT of mana seeing thats what they give up when they
choose create. I have heard that from Rufus, Ea!, and Sandra, so I
expect it to be the party line. other people have already mentioned
the difficulties of using charmies as tanks, but again I will restate
them. With the exception of Greater Summoning, the amount of damage
that charmed creatures do is negligible. To start with they don't hit
very hard, and on top of that, they are level 25 tops, 15 usually and
this puts them at a serious disadvantage on the hit table. Seeing the
difference 10 levels makes as a player, I am damned surprise they hit
at all. Thats not to mention their lack of skills, inability to rescue
and generally poor armor class. When was the last time you saw a lvl50
mob miss a greater elemental?
And what is gained when one accepts these disadvantages? Now we have
a creature that forgets who gave it life, loads one death away from
permanent death, and sucks anywhere from 50-75% of the experience away
from the caster. It is not unreasonable that the caster would get
50/200 if the experience. on your average level 50 mob under this new
and improved xp scale, thats about 5K. Frankly, I can go and kill level
35 mobs for that much exp, take less damage, conserve more mana, have
a fairly reasonable selection to choose from, and in general better
repop times. And that only hurts the characters who are level 25-45.
To me, this is preferable to the effort of creating and maintaining a
chant kere jiv ex
chant kere jiv ex
chant kere jiv ex
chant kere jiv ex
order all agg
order all agg
order all agg of minions to help me. I can play at being a warrior on abou
about a par with a dedicated warrior fighting level 50 mobs. In fact
the more I think about it, the more reasonable it sounds. Instead of
having to kill 150-180 million xp worth of level 50 mobs with the
risk that entails, I could simply kill 60million worth of lvl35 mobs.
Probably take less time, way less effort, and be a whole lot more
destructive to the LegendMUD environment. No more of thise reasonable
gear I am happy to give away to people while I am running, rather I will
be able to give away filets, ruffs, long swords and similar and other
similar items.
Frankly, from my perspective, this resembles the recent change to the
xp scale. At the time it seemed like a good idea, some people ie low
info -CHEER!- people, benefited greatly, but overall it is now seen as a f
failure. Damn aliases. I also wonder who put forth this idea that
create mages are overpowered. I know that the immortals I have spoken
with about this have said that they find their create mages to be
good at killing mobs, but I wonder in what circumstances they speak
of. Sure solo creates are probably the best character type for getting
exp, though I feel snipers can give them a fair run for their money.
In a group, hitters and healers are far better off than poor create
mages who are, after all is said and done, very one dimensional.
Maybe you think I am wrong, maybe I AM wrong, but frankly this change
has seriously taken the fun out of this character, and that sucks
seeing this one is my favourite. Not the best killer, not the best
healer, not the best xp runner, but the most versatile and fun to play.
Actually, not even the most versatile, and each change seems to drag
down that very versatility.
Lastly, to the immortal who told me about a high mana character....
I defy you to work out how I can do it with my character setup.
100mind, 95dex, 40con/spr/perc, 32str, 0 practices. Like I said at
the time, basing the decision on that one example seriously hurts
people who don't fit into it, and frankly, thats 1/3 of the creates.
If I was str, I could probably do it, maybe, but I doubt I would
care for the trade-offs.
Davien Holyoake.
PS, of all the changes to creates over the last 18 months, have any
been beneficial? I can catalogue what we have lost, but I'll do it
in another append if it becomes necessary after the length of this one.
From: Gran
Tuesday, July 27, 03:39AM
I agree 100 % with what has been said in the append
above. I can't understand either where the idea of
create mages being overpowered has come from.
Like Davien says, the create school has been continously
weakened for a quite long time. It's just not so fun to
play create mages as it once has been.
What is even worse is that if you put forth cristicism
- which after all at least the person posting finds justified
- it has happened more than once that you were met with response
like "Stop complaining, or we'll take away what little you have
left". Hardly a way of encouraging a constructive discussion,
I'd say.
As for the last change to charmies, even if there was a reason
for a change as such - which I -personally- am far from convinced
of - it definitely doesn't stand to reason, as has been pointed
out here before many times, that charmies split xp with the
mage equally. For greater summon creatures it could make some
sense - and even then just to a limited extent - but definitely
not for greater elementals, not to speak of common elementals,
homunculi, and doppelgangers. If those creatures aren't to
become -totally- useless, then it's really essential
that the mage is given at least the major part of xp gained.
From: Ariel
Tuesday, July 27, 06:58AM
I agree with Davien and Gran's posts. I think creates were, at best
slightly overpowered. It's not as if everyone flocked to making
creates, as I think they would have had creates been really overpowered.
In addition, only certain types of creates were especially
good at killing mobs. At least, there are a couple of other types
of characters who I think are at least as efficient at mobkill as creates.
I don't think I'll mention them for fear that they'll get hit next.
I think what's been done here is to sacrifice fun for game balance.
And I know the answer to that is often "Ah, but when the game is
totally balanced you'll have more fun." Maybe so, but the game
isn't totally balanced. Maybe these types of changes should wait
a while, until additional balancing factors are ready to go in, like
skilltrees (hopefully). I remember Rufus saying a couple of months ago
that he wanted 100 mind to be as dangerous as 100 strength. As of now
it's not, not by a long shot, and still mages are being downgraded.
I simply have to wonder at the reasoning behind this.
From: Mugwump
Tuesday, July 27, 12:54PM
Darn, I guess this means I can't ask Davien for advice on xprunning
as a dex create. I have asked around a bit, and most of the suggestions
I've heard would work as well, in most cases better, if I were cause
instead of create, or 60 mind instead of 100. I never really
concentrated on xp running because i never hit on an efficient
method with this alt. In comparison, my sniper can go on 150-250k
(or more if the mobs don't run out) runs and never drop below
50% hp (unless I get foolhardy and miss a snipe on a bigger than
usual L50). I'm still open to suggestions if anyone has any for 100
mind dex create, though.
Now, about 100 mind being as dangerous as 100 strength....
I have a level 22 str/create, with advanced swordsman and bash, and
all other practices going for words. I decided to try and compare how
well I can xp run with a doppel compared to without. Without one, I
kill a lot of perfect match to easy mobs, use roots to heal. With a
doppel I can kill a fairly large number of higher level mobs (up to are
you crazy), and when the doppel rests switch to killing same and
lower level mobs. This is something of an advantage, but only if the
area has lots of mobs in both level ranges.
But would this work if I were 90mind and 60 str? Well, stun would
be better, if it didn't fail too often at that level. Seems to me the
main advantage in having a doppel is to tank while you hit and do
lots of damage. This works best for a str mage, for a con mage the
doppel has more hp, which helps somewhat also. As a dex mage,
I have never once hit better than 'decimate' level damage, and my
doppel is pretty lightweight. And having higher mind only takes away
from other stats that would allow me to do more damage. Also, this
is using only a 2nd circle spell. If the charmies primarily useful as
a tank, how does adding more of them help? And if the charmie isn't
tanking, then it's comparable to a dancing sword. Hmm, fire elemental
or dancing Saebel, which would you prefer? I've seen Saebels damcap...
while greater elementals clock in at about 20 or so dam per round on a
naked doppel. Plus the Saebel takes far less (nearly 0) of the group xp.
Ok, create gimps have more hit points, but this is only an advantage if
you are planning on having your primary tank die, ie, fighting really big
mobs. In which case you won't split so much xp anyway, because your
gimps will be dead.
As for improvements to create since I've been here? Hmm, greater
summoned, the biggest of my disposable tanks, has a chance to be
permanent. At 100 mind I think I get permanent ones less than 5% of
the time though, so it's almost no change at all.
In any case, maybe this bug-fix isn't as bad as we all think, it's just
another thing we have to adjust our tactics to while we wait for the day
when 100 mind matters for something other than the small handful of
mobs which it makes stun viable for.
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