Posted by Dune on 07/23
Infidel takes a lot of time to write ideas on how to make legend a better
place to pkill. I read a lot of his posts and I notice his increasing
frustration with the community here. Id like to say, that as a fellow
pkiller, who likes legend for pkill (yes, thats a valid reason to like
legend) that I support all his ideas. He still has the energy to post
them! Thank god. I agree with most all of what he says and I would like
to add my support!
I would also like to say that I used to post a lot on this board too..
with various characters. I dont post anymore cause it seems like my
suggestions arent really listened to:( Cheers to Infidel for still
trying! Its people like him that make the combat system so well tuned
here. You dont figure out that certain spells or skills are overpowered
or whatever or not usefull, etc by role playing....
I have a lot of opinions actually on how to make this place better, but
I dont feel like going into them, only to have a person that plays legend
mostly for the social aspect to discredit them (and flame me!) with
selfish concerns. Yes, there are some pkillers that are played by
immature players that clutter chat etc.... not all pkillers are like this!
I also just hate this anti-pkiller sentiment that so many players have.
It seems that they think that making any kind of code suggestions is
like bashing the imms. PKillers fight eachother... when you bash a
mob, you dont know how much your bash did, or whether it was effective.
Its no wonder that so much good combat system info comes from active
pkillers.
So when you see Infidel posting about the combat system, trust him..
He is one of the few pkillers that still bothers to post on this board!
Its damn abusive posting something on here and having all these randoms
chant kere agni mrti ex your idea.
Dune:)
From: Jieret
Tuesday, July 20, 05:45AM
Whoa, the first person to actually agree with Infidel. I have
been wondering how long it would be till someone pointed out that
he has recieved absolutly no positive comment from any of the
pkillers, no supporting messages from the GMs of any clan, or
anything to say that its worth doing. Coupled with that, the posts
containing objections have mostly been just as valid as problems
with his system, and he has yet to address those as anything other
that the whining of people who get in the way of his master plan.
I personally see it as elitist, unnecessary, and counter-productive
to the goals he has stated, but then I don't really have a better
answer. However if I seriously did think it was worth implementing
i would be trying to address the concerns raised about it instead
of shrugging them off as mere nothings.
If it is worth implementing, then answer me one question. Why do
pkillers deserve an item that gives them an innate advantage over
other characters? You provide an answer to that representing the
whole playerbase from the newest newbie to the oldest oldie and I
will back this idea to the hilt. And FYI, improving pkill isn't
that reason. Would you offer the same item to anyone with a good
RP? Its the same principle.
Jieret Redbeard.
From: Infidel
Tuesday, July 20, 05:59AM
Are you sure you read my messages? Point out one objection
that I haven't addressed, I was sure I got them all.
From: Infidel
Tuesday, July 20, 06:13AM
BTW, when was the last time you saw something from this board
implemented? Perhaps people are realising that messages of
support are as much a waste of time as the idea itself.
From: Ton
Tuesday, July 20, 11:22AM
Noticing the decline of posts here in the last month or two, I would say
that either people that read this board are getting more lazy, or
getting frustrated. Either way, posts seem like they are way down, as
are compliments and expansions on the ideas posted. I'm not sure why this
is happening, but I know it is at least for me.
Ton
PS- Maybe we just don't have enough that we see 'wrong' here to post about
it, and everything is perfect! (heh)
From: Fatale
Tuesday, July 20, 02:15PM
I've personally seen a few of the ideas I've put on the idea
channel go in recently. Perhaps the ideas on the discussion
board simply aren't feasible and don't fit in with the progress
of Legend?
From: Akai_Monkey
Tuesday, July 20, 02:38PM
ummm people who are good at RP do get items
get all them freakin strings, where as i dont have a single one
so maybe we should have some way to get coupons from pkill too?
From: Amadio
Tuesday, July 20, 05:02PM
In response to Akai_Hayate: what has RP got to do with
winning coupons? You get coupons for playing games, not for
RPing. I think occasionally people will be awarded coupons for nifty
RP submissions to the LT, but tokens are far more common prizes for that.
If you don't have a lot of strung stuff, it has nothing to do with
whether or not you RP, and a lot to do with how good you are at
recall tag and flag hunts and such.
From: Tarn
Tuesday, July 20, 10:12PM
IMHO, coupons benefit both those who RP and those who don't. Those
who RP can find it tough to get enough coupons on their own, so
those who don't RP can then make large amounts of cash out of
selling their unneeded coupons to the RP-ers.
Tarn
From: Israfel
Wednesday, July 21, 10:05AM
I personally like the idea that Infidel suggested, and I understand why it
DOES need to have a stat bonus. That it's incentive for nonrp pkillers to
kill over it is pretty obvious.
I personally wouldn't pk over a zip string (well with my pkiller whom I'm
too lazy to log in). An idea I had from Tarn (she suggested it) was that
the item in question could be pk-only benefits - meaning that only in
pk situations would it have a use. Say it's +6hit/dam, but ONLY against
another PC>
My suggestion was a perma, 60% to 80% effective sink. I can only think of
about 3-4 mobs I'd sink for, offhand, as an unclanned, (I discount HoL
because I'm just too lazy to do that, others might) but even so the
effect of a sink on an unclanned is mostly minimal. This is easily
supported by the fact taht most unclanneds have sucky sinks, and the only
people one sees regularly renewing sinks are pkillers.
I think the problem with Infidel's posts are not the ideas, which are good
but perhaps the phrasing which tends to raise hackles. In the crossfire of
irritated people, whether clanned or unclanned, good ideas are lost.
I DO feel that the discussion board suggestions seem to be ignored by
imms in general - and I would like a standard response at least like, we
like that, but it won't fly, we don't like that, it's unbalancing. Just
one line - to show the ideas are at least being seen.
And Dune, keep posting, at least they made the change to backstab a little
less drastic.
Israfel Shadowleaf
Servant of the Lady
From: LadyAce
Wednesday, July 21, 10:24AM
A few thoughts on the nature of the discussion board, and the
role it plays in discussing things with the imm staff.
This board is read and considered, on a regular basis. I've said
earlier that we're relatively 'full up' right now, and the projects
that get done are either the high-priority bugs, the larger projects
that fit with our long-term goals, or 'the way-cool thing that some
imm got inspired to write and ran off and did'. People tend to work
on projects and ideas that inspire them. But we've raised the bar,
in terms of new suggestions, because we're so full up on things
to do. Your idea might be great, but if it requires any large
degree of work and or doesn't inspire one of our volunteers to
step up and do it, then it's not so likely to get done. Even if it
seems like a good idea now, the larger projects require that the
person suggesting them wait for a year or perhaps more before they'd
go into the game.
If your idea isn't getting the response you want, ask why. Remind
us that you are interested in our response. Sure, we should be more
active in responding to ideas. We should be more active in building,
coding, communicating, developing, etc. -- it is easy to say "hey,
you there, work harder!" I don't think any of us work on Legend
24/7, and until we do, you can always tell us to do more. On the other
hand, let's look at what we're already doing -- it's pretty darn
good. Every week, new features go in, bugs are fixed, progress is
made. We've got up weeks and down weeks, sometimes we put in good
stuff and sometimes we screw up. You've got imms here every day,
working away at making this a better place.
This mud is at a point where we have a set of older and established
players who think about the game in an intelligent way. They don't
always agree with each other, or us, but they have a stake in this
place. It's reasonably apparent what the imms are doing to make
this place better. Our weekly reports go into the LT, the typos
that make you insane, disappear, the bugs that interrupt your fun,
get squashed. Updates and improvements to the code go in weekly.
We answer your questions, we take care of your descriptions, we
deal with the cheaters and do our best with the troublemakers.
That's what we do with our power, but what do you do with yours?
What can you do with yours?
You can make suggestions. You can point out problems. You can
motivate us with your attitudes, and unmotivate us with your
attitudes. You can look at how you treat each other and the
atmosphere that creates.
I've seen a lot of positive work come from the mortals here,
and I've seen some negative.
As for the previous discussion about a hit/dam item that prompted
(or partially prompted) this thread, here's a bit of a timeline on
how my thoughts went in reading it over the last few days.
Infidel brings up an idea, and I think hm, I'd love to see more
RP in pk, even if very limited, but it should be because it's fun,
not out of an in-game bonus. I read again later, and think ah,
good, someone pointed this out, I wonder what kind of response he
will have. I come back after a bit, and see oh, he responds that
RP isn't the goal at all, zip wouldn't be acceptable, so it must
not just be a prestige issue. Hm, custom code to give non-RP
pk'ers some motivation to RP...not sure it's worth it, considering
what else we have going. But hold on a moment, he just said that
the game is an empty shell (or something) and there are tons of
better places. Boy, that makes me want to sit down and talk
with him about some specific suggestion, when he's just said
that he considers the place worthless. Not.
So if it's reaction to the ideas you want, skip the insults. It
really does beg the question why someone is here, if they think
it sucks. I'm not saying "you there, critic, leave!" -- it's far
from the truth. I really wanna know why someone would spend time
and energy here, suggesting, thinking, posting, and thereby
earning my attention, only to take that and turn it around and
tell me they think the place is worthless? I can understand
feeling frustrated and unlistened-to, but telling me, and the
other readers of this board, that you consider the whole
place terrible, is simply an act of self-betrayal.
My reaction to the idea itself is posted above.
-LA
From: Infidel
Wednesday, July 21, 12:48PM
To quote what I said: "I'm just amazed how people can be content
with this empty shell of a MUD in comparison with what's provided
elsewhere, artifacts, kingdoms gold held in halls with hired
mobs to guard it etc etc"
You replied with "But hold on a moment, he just said that
the game is an empty shell (or something) and there are tons of
better places." Then.. "only to take that and turn it around
and tell me they think the place is worthless? I can understand
feeling frustrated and unlistened-to, but telling me, and the
other readers of this board, that you consider the whole
place terrible, is simply an act of self-betrayal."
Geez, now I remind myself of Jean.. Anyway, you seem to have
read a lot into that single sentence, I was only talking
about the pk related features that keep things interesting.
This MUD is totally void of anything that gives us any real
reason to pk and it's the cause of many problems IMO.
From: LadyAce
Wednesday, July 21, 01:19PM
I agree, I read a fair bit into that sentence -- strong
statements have a way of making people react to them --
and not necessarily positively. I find that when people are
down on this place, and down on it in a less than constructive
manner, I have a lot less interest in engaging in a debate with
them. After all, I'm putting my ideas out in as open and
"vulnerable" sort of way as possible -- if the line between
"discussion" and "rant" looks threatened, then I start to
wonder if my effort really has a point.
On the other hand, you didn't see me saying "sniff, you said
mean things about our mud, I'm not going to talk to you
ever again!" -- so don't be too concerned. It's one thing
to say "empty shell" and another thing to say "there's not
much reason to pk and it's a cause of problems" -- and since
you said both, I encourage you to take the latter approach,
I'm much better at listening and responding to it, and I suspect
that others are as well.
-LA
From: Ariel
Wednesday, July 21, 05:43PM
Actually, pkillers have fought and died for bits of zip. Anyone
remember Jehannum's pkill game, where LadyAce strung up zip for all
the clans and rogues and stuff? This was about, oh, six months or so ago,
maybe a little more. Anyway, my memory's pretty sketchy, so I don't
even remember a fraction of what went on, but I do remember
Agni winding up with his chalice strung as an Iscariot item, and
Aginor and Ezekiel beating the hell out of each other (not like that
was anything new) for their clans' zips. I remember Hugh going questing
for his father's longsword, little things come back bit by bit.
The point is, everyone I talked to at the time seemed to have fun
whomping each other for no more than zip trophies. At the
time there wasn't even any mention (that I can recall) of making the
trophies have any sort of in-game benefit. Have we changed
so much in six months that something that seemed to energize people
back then is completely worthless now?
From: Stewart
Thursday, July 22, 12:14PM
From: Fraegis
Friday, July 23, 10:27AM
You are right, Infidel, quite a few things is wrong, also in my
opinion. But it has very little do to with the code. I am not
aiming this at you personally, you just said something was wrong
here, and I thought I would add my thoughts. Yes, pkill must
be boring for those of you who enjoy the challenge of a fight versus
a non-mob opponent. Not to say that that is wrong to enjoy, but
you all could do a little more to make that happen more often.
Try having some courtesy. Always bashing the new pkillers,
and keeping killing one for one stupid mistake is not exactly
going to make more new people enable. All the looting/multiing is not
exactly what gets more people to try pkill either. When you see a new
pkiller, why do people always have to try to steal from that person
"In order so see if you were in range. Besides, it is better than
attacking you". Wow, that person must feel so much welcome.
Why not stop and say hi, and ask if he or she has some questions
about pkill, or needs some advice. That way you get more skilled
opponents, which must provide more fun, but you also create
a much better atmosphere in pkill, drawing more people into it.
If people keep seeing multi's, and seeing people yell about
looting/throwing insults at each other, most won't feel any desire
at all to enable. But if they see that most pkillers have a
good time, and are friendly to each other, meaning that even
though someone is being jumped and loose, there are no harsh
words thrown across channels, they will most likely be
way more interested in enabling.
So yes, something is wrong with pkill here, but it takes a lot
other than code to fix it.
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