Posted by Davien on 08/16
ok, let me start by saying I find this change quite hippocritical
There have been many posts and appends to this board in particular
saying that mobkill is boring and that the exp system sucks. Those
people are of the view that it is too much of a grind to get to level
50. Now this change will clearly prolong that grind and make the
mobkilling that much more boring. Is this what the mud needs? More
mobkill for creates? I don't really think so.
one the other hand, this may be the first step of a grand plan
to re-balance the exp system to avoid 'the grind'. If so, it has
been very poorly communicated, and I for one would like to hear quite
a bit more about it. Why can these steps not be implemented at the
same time?
Secondly, I want to know why this was considered a bug, and how
long it has been on the bug list. After all, in the entire time I
have been here, I have not heard mention of this 'bug' nor of anyone
intending to fix it. Added to this, I hardly see it as a high priority
bug in light of the current state of the mobkill scene.
Thirdly, I hope that ALL of the summoning spells are in for a
upgrade now that their usefullness has been so seriously undermined.
Create mage, Half mages, and others sacrifice the stats to be able
to cast the spells, many rely on them. We give up hp/hitroll/damroll
to be able to cast these spells, and use them as an alternative to
those items, even as armor, and now that sacrifice is being .....
exploited seems a good word to use. This is going to have a major
impact on the viability of many character types, and as such, the
diversity of player-types and player-base, and I can only see this
as being destructive in the long term.
Fourthly, I want to know why a change so major to every single
create mage was slipped in with 24 hours notice as a bug fix. This
is the most significant change that I can think of since the xp
system changeover, maybe even more significant than that, though I
guess that depends on your point of view, and it has been sprung
with little to no warning. If I had a dentist appointment, I would
have been too late to evan have a say.
Davien Holyoake the barely-in-control-of-himself create mage.
From: Trample
Friday, June 25, 07:29AM
hrm, when I read that post I took it as meaning charmed "mobs"
not what I would call "gimps" such as demons etc.
I could be wrong. -pshrug-
immortal clarification on this please?
From: Mugwump
Friday, June 25, 09:18AM
From: Mugwump
Friday, June 25, 09:19AM
ok trying again. tried to cut and paste and spammed myself LD.
Yeah, this change does suck. Weird how I had heard that this was
considered a bug just a week ago from someone who happens to be
a good friend of several imms. I've always had more trouble
gaining xp with this alt than with anything else I have tried,
probably because I tend to leave my charmies grouped, simply
because with a 5kg weapon and -2 damroll there's a decent chance
that the charmies do more damage than I do. The worst part is that a
greater summoneds and doppels split xp as if he were the same level
as if they were the same level as me, and there is no way they are as
valuable in a fight as having another player of the same level
grouped.
Recently when I complained on chat how difficult I found it to gain
xp with create mage several people responded that they found it to
be easier than with other char types. So I worked on another create
mage, this time a strength fighter, and yeah, with doppels, I could
gain xp a bit faster than some of the other char types I'ved tried.
Not as fast as my sniper, but still pretty damn good. Now I guess I
will have to go to the method of killing lots and lots of mobs below
my level, which I have never done with any character before,
because its real boring.
Beyond that, this pretty much makes create mages good for one
thing only: getting equipment solo. (In todays auction market that's
often not worth much either.) Create is fairly useless to a group,
unless it's a particularly hungry group. Every time I've been to SL
I've had the fun job of making food and water, maybe few rolls of
bandages. Whoopie. Every now and then I've been a hitter in a
group when a mob is stunnable, but then stun is not a create spell.
In fact, if I were group leader and wanted a stunner I'd get a cause
mage who could idiocy first anyway, but that's another story.
Beyond the fact that this was the first character that I played past
level 5 here, and spent most of my time not having any idea what I
was doing, this has still been one of the most fun characters I have
played here. With this change, I really doubt I will ever try a 100
mind create mage again.
fairly certain I'll never see a redeem point-
Mugwump
From: Ea!
Friday, June 25, 07:28PM
The change requires that a mob be a member of your group in order for
you to be able to order it around.
This was done because we got at least a half a dozen bug reports
that people could order ungrouped mobs around.
It does follow the general concept that if you reduce the risk by
summoning help you reduce the benefit of the kill.
As for the idea that we're slipping in a major change with 24 hours
notice, it's a change to around six spells, not to the entire way
that any character type operates. (And, no, I don't consider charmies
the only way create mages operate. That would be akin to saying that
cause mages only immolate. While it may be one of the important tools
for that character type, it's certainly not the only.)
If this change ends up overly weakening create mages we will adjust
appropriately -- like all such changes, it's not written in stone.
-Ea!
From: Davien
Friday, June 25, 08:36PM
In order for me to reduce the risk of a fight by creating
charmed mobs, I need to increase the risk of the fight in
other ways. If I decide my charmies need lots of HP, then I,
being the template, must have high HP (greater summoning is
the exception, with maybe create life). To get high HP I must
go con. Having high con means that I sacrifice damroll, hitroll,
in many cases armor, carrying capacity, weapon weight and have
a greater susceptibleity to str and dex based skills. To get
my 550Hp character in order to make really good elementals and
doppels, I can concievably have negative damroll, hitroll and a
positive armor class. Does this not increase the risk of the fight
enough to offset the risk reduction of charmies?
Should I decide I need to do lots of damage I have 2 options.
get garlic dert
get vial bag
brew garlic
q vial
put vial bag for hard hitting, or dex for constant hitting. With high mind
and the reqs for spells, its an either or situation. I choose str
then I have low HP, and I don't hit often. I choose dex, I get an
AC bonus, I hit lots, but I have low HP and low damage. In fact
the max str possible would be 29, with most people getting less, so
most people have negative damroll. Again increasing risk to offset
the charmies.
Also possible is the reduction in mind, which reduces the
effectiveness of the spells in question. Fighting ability is
gained and the quality of charmies diminished. offset.
Mention was made of the number of spells being influenced by this
Greater Summoning
Summon Earth Elemental + greater
Summon Fire Elemental + greater
Summon Water Elemental + greater
Summon Air Elemental + greater
Create Life
Dancing Sword
Animate Dead
Doppelganger
come to mind, with the possible implementation of other skills
that enable mobs to be charmed. 9min, 13 probably + future skills.
As for this not being the only way that creates fight, I must agree.
It is however the main difference between create and cause, and one
of the major benefits. Even then it must be weighed up against the
drawbacks that charmies have. Firstly their level.
A level 25 charmie does not hit a level 50 mob often. The hit
table sees to this fairly effectively. Even a level 40 PC with
good hitroll has trouble hitting an average lvl50 mob. This leaves
only 2 real areas of effectiveness, special attacks or damage sink
ability. My experience is that special attacks are helpful, if not
overly damaging, leaving only the damage sink ability. There is no
guarantee that a mob will hit a charmie not the master. Indeed some
mobs SEEM (I am almost positive they do, but lack absolute proof)
to turn on the master almost if not immeadiately. That leaves the
charmies damage doing potential as the only advantage. Frankly, one
immolate can equal that for the whole fight.
Secondly, charmies have management difficulties. You have to order
them to do stuff, they can bleed, they can turn on you, they can be
taken from your control, you can leave them behind, much of the time
their numbers are limited, and many of their other advantages have
been stripped recently. Heck, a good number of mobs are immune to
chant kere lak dyn ex attacks!
Thirdly, to create a greater army requires more mind than the
average create mage without +mana gear has. This is somewhere near
625 mana, which is a damn lot. Seeing immolate was mentioned, how
many times can you cast immolate for 625 mana? 12? 13? Do 4 charmies
equal 13 immolates? I would say the comparison is difficult, but the
answer is no. Plus creates don't get the 10str, -10ac, 5hitroll
benefits.
And this is merely from a third circle perspective. My create
druid, restricted to 2nd circle create spells is going to be even
more devastated by this prospect. With even more stats devoted to
spirit and str for herb/bandage carrying, his fighting ability is
almost negligible. I guess this is the price for being able to heal
and I realised that when I started, but I now seriously wish I had
gone cause. I guess this is a revolving situation, but with all of
the reduction in create abilities, and the halving of mana cost for
the main reason to be on the other side, the move never looked worse.
At this stage, the main things 2nd circle create magic has going for
it is preserve and glowing orbs. Now if I had the ability to bot that
character I might be overjoyed, but seeing I have neither the time,
hours, money, or even inclination to do that, its not funny.
I guess I am trying to illustrate why I feel that the system is/was
evenly balanced before this change. Create give up a lot for their
ability to create things. Please leave it at that.
Davien Holyoake.
From: Davien
Friday, June 25, 09:17PM
I forgot to mention my version of 'charmed' as well.
I see it as being mesmerised, hypnotised or otherwise
influenced by the person who is giving the orders. I
can see no reason why the group status would influence
the susceptibility to any orders given.
In terms of it being a bug, well I guess it depends
on perspective, but I can think of a few other things
that can be classified the same way. However, I don't
feel any need to bring others down, simply because they
have an advantage I don't. I am who I am, and what other
people have or do makes very little difference to that.
I should also point out no one has said anything about
the effect this is likely to have on mobkill. I guess
we need to get things as bad as possible, then maybe a
solution will present itself?
Davien Holyoake.
From: Kundry
Friday, June 25, 11:42PM
I don't, personally like the change to not being able to
order ungrouped charmies about, and I do agree with Davien's viewpoint
that they're -charmed- to the caster, and the grouped/ungrouped status
shouldn't matter.
I think this also takes away one of the major advantages of being a 2c
create mage, especially a con one, or one that stacks con, eg dex/con,
str/con, etc etc. Since the one of the major advantages of having a 2c
create who has con is your doppels last longer, thus allowing you to fight
more mobs with one doppel. Fixing this bug so that if you want the xp you
have to split with a same level group member who does nothing more than
tank (even if that is a considerable advantage) well...I personally would
probably just make one doppel per mob, and go after the bigger ones, rathe
than use one doppel to kill say...the whole Irish royal family.
That being said, I disagree with Davien on a few points.
While I do feel that 3c creates somehow seem to be being constantly down-
graded (increase of mobs that slay charmies, high number of det illusion m
mobs rendering spells such as flaming sword, dagger of ice, doppelgangers
useless), I do feel that a properly made 3c create is one of the most
stunningly efficient mobkillers' I've yet to see or make.
However, this is only ONE kind of 3c create mage I'm looking at, who is
basically one that hits like a fighter, with the bare stats needed to
qualify for all the 3c spells. Which is actually merely a principle on my
part, since I cannot recall the last time I used rudh with such a create.
The change to ungrouped charmies no longer obeying orders hurts such a
mage not at all. With the kind of killing power a mage like that has, in
and of himself, independent of charmies save as cannon fodder, all this
change does is slow him down a little.
It seems to me that the mages who hurt the most are high mind 3c creates,
since those are the ones who depend on greater summons, as well as their
lesser elemental kin.
They need their charmies to do damage, but with them grouped, a huge amoun
of xp is lost, when in comparison with a 3c cause mage, who can, even with
40 con, choose to fight say...barney without a tank and be fairly certain
of winning. A str/mind or dex/mind 3c create (for mine anyway) find the
outcome a LOT more uncertain.
I just included that to point out that this change hurts 3c creates a lot
more than 3c causes, since the whole point, to me, of even
making a 3c create is I don't have to get a group for most mobs unless I
WANT to.
I've no problem grouping my charmies as a 3c cause - in fact, in the case
of dancing sword, they do enough damage that they make up for the fact tha
they take xp when grouped, and should I ungrouped them, they're likely to
steal the kill.
I guess my point is that with this change, it would be nice to see
greater summoned's being more powerful, in order to give more reason
to make a high mind 3c create.
Oh, and I also find it unnerving that somewhere along the line, the hps
of greater elementals was changed from con to mind based, and nothing was
said about this change. This character was designed to take advantage of
the greater elementals being con based, and while I don't mind the
change greatly, since high mind 3c creates do need an edge - what I
find disturbing is that this change was not posted anywhere.
I was hoping to have 4 250 elementals walking about but..oh well ;)
I'll live, I just wish there'd been some notice.
Here ends my attempt to outdo Jean.
Kundry
From: Sandra
Saturday, June 26, 02:16AM
Re: Kundry's paragraph regarding the change of greater summoned mobs
That change was made almost a year ago, and in fact, was posted, and
talked about in a Q&A before it went in. Its in no way a new change,
or one that was just snuck in.
In regards to the rest of the thread...
I fail to see how this change is downgrading create mages as seriously
as Davien has posted. I'm sorry that level 35 create mages won't be
able to kill the laibon and get all of the exp for it anymore, such
is life. In keeping charmed mobs in the group, this is a way the
mud, I think, shows that they are charmed to that person. They belong
to them, therefore are grouped with them.
Having been a 2nd circle create mage, and having several of both 3rd
and 2nd circle ones currently, I think that Davien is overreacting.
I have dex, strength and con versions of each, in case you're wondering.
Some with high mind, some with low. The ability to use charmed mobs
such as doppels is a powerful one, you can equip them, and they can
last quite a while, easily being a tank for mobs of a higher level
than their master. So you won't get all of the exp unless they die,
but you won't have to rest as often as other character types as
you won't be taking the brunt of the attacks.
As for greater summoned mobs being more powerful, um ouch? They do
quite a bit of damage, AND have a special attack, AND their hp is
based on the caster's mind. So a full mage gets more of the benefit.
From: Infidel
Saturday, June 26, 09:24AM
The problem with that change from con to mind based is that my 45
con 60 mind create mages demons dropped in hps by a big margin.
What's with that? I would have thought they'd improve in hps!
As for the recent change, it's only going to make it more
awkward.. Order all kill then ungroup?? Calm then move charmies
when the mob's nearly dead? Why not just let them be ungrouped
to save a lot of hassles.
From: Fatale
Saturday, June 26, 11:44AM
Instead of arguing to have it changed back, why not propose
a solution that would benefit mages? We've heard that mages
take a serious blow by not being able to ungroup charmed mobs
because they don't want to split the xp. My idea is for
charmed mobs to "steal" a smaller fraction of the xp. Instead
of a full split, have them take a quarter instead and the
caster gets 3/4ths of it. If mobs do turn frequently, the
charmeds don't last very long, then this should be an
almost fair compromise, one that may need work, but I believe
it is a valid one.
From: Davien
Saturday, June 26, 05:59PM
Actually, Fatale's suggestion is really pretty good, and at least
an attempt to address the main problem as I see it, of the increase
in the number of mobs that will need to be killed by creates. After
all, creates are exercising their skills to get the kill, without
them there would be no kill, so they should get the bulk of the exp.
Added to this is the fact that they should be gaining exp for learning
more control over their constructs.
Sandra mentions lvl35 creates killing the Laibon. In point of fact,
none of mine have ever done that. This isprobably because I don't
really like industrial. on the other hand, one of my snipers who is
lvl 34 had no trouble killing him. With no charmed mobs. With no snipe.
With no help from the hit table. With no healer. Putting creates up
as super characters because some of them can do this is a bit misleading.
Another point I would like to address was regarding Sandras comments
about playing many types of create recently. No offense intended here,
but Sandra is not an average person. With an immortals knowledge of
the system, very good natural talent and a goodly amount of practice
I would have to say that she is a pretty exceptional player. I would
count myself as maybe -slightly- above average on good days. ok so I
have been exagerating my assessment of the impact a little, but by no
where near as much as many people seem to think. If you were starting
your first mage character, maybe your second character here, would you
choose create knowing you will now have to kill 26 + 50 x 3 lvl50 mobs
or 26 + 50 lvl50 mobs? ok, so you might kill each one faster, but
would that make up for the fact you have to kill 3 times as many from
about lvl25 on? With all the other limitations that create magic has?
And thats just to get from 49 to 50.
From an NPH perspective, that sort of comparison is often asked. I
don't want to sway people away from create, or cause for that matter,
but I just can't see it as a balanced thing at the moment. I can't say
what is in store next month, just as I couldn't have said what was in
store for creates this time last week, but I think time will tell who
was right here.
Davien Holyoake.
PS, I'm glad there is actually some discussion here, this board has
been a bit boring lately!
From: Ton
Sunday, June 27, 08:38PM
I like Fatale's suggestion. Because as someone else said, there are
still ways around it, its just more annoying. (kill, ungroup, get xp)
Davien also brings up a point. If a sniper can kill a hard level 50 mob
solo at level 35 (and they can), why shouldn't other character types
be able to as well? I am not saying all types should, but if another type
can, why worry about it?
From: Ariel
Sunday, June 27, 09:44PM
Just a thought that might maybe increase the survivability of
dops at least, if they're going to be getting a share of the xp now...
Well, question. How is doppelganger AC figured? Is it that of the caster,
or does it start at 100? Err, I imagine the latter since you can equip
them. Anyway, since they're supposedly illusions of the caster,
why can't they have the same AC as the caster? After all, if a mob
believes that he's attacking a living, breathing person instead
of an illusion, and if that illusion is of a person wearing a shield and
a chainmail shirt, wouldn't the mob believe that his blows were sliding of
off the shield or clanging against the mail? Whee, mob psychology :p
Anyway, I think it might be a good idea to make doppies a bit
more...shall we say...robust, if they're going to justify stealing my
hard-earned xp :p
From: Deicide
Tuesday, June 29, 01:13PM
Actually, I think it IS safe to say that charmies are
the way a full create mage operates.. I've never had a create mage
because they suck royally to level and to use..
but.. you cannot compare the 6 most commonly used
spells with "immolate"
Creates use their gimps to take damage and some use them to deal
damage.. you dont see many create mages going agg
and flamestriking a mob to death.. it just doesnt work
lightning bolt is a decent spell but most mobs worth
killing are not outdoors..
I like mugwumps point about sharing xp with 5 other level 50's..
when they don't really help quite as much as another level 50 char..
maybe make them level 10 chars with the same stats.. thats a possible fix.
now.. all the creates have left is to let their charmies
do the damage and then calm and lead them out.. or is that a bug too since
the mobs won't get their hard earned xp?
-Dei
From: Darkheart
Wednesday, June 30, 10:33AM
maybe it's just me, but when i used to have create mages,
i've never intended any of the gimps to last more than one
fight -- usually i went through several of them in
a single battle.
I hardly see any of the argument saying how dops are
'the way' to get xp or xp getting will be severely
hampered by the change. Mages in my opinion, and experience,
have the most devastating mob-killing spell in the
game in terms of efficiency. I don't recall, in my
past xp-runs with my pk mages, severe or even frequent
use of dops. Only time those came in handy was when
xp wasn't the objective, such as eq, or getting a kill.
Darkheart -- whee, spent $1 posting that thing.
From: Sibwarra
Wednesday, June 30, 09:34PM
I am glad we are discussing this because i am pretty hot about it
i DEPEND strictly on my dopple for aid in fighting since i give up HP,
Str and other stats to BE a druid/create mage, not to mention the fact tha
i need the damn dopple to carry crap for me so i can afford my house
i am so damn weak from my mind/spir eq that i cant carry any amount
of cash or eq for sale to even a merchant! so now i have to group the dam
dopple just so he will listen to me?!?!? proposterous
I offer this solution: make at least a portion of the exp that the dopple
sucks up recoverable by me killing my dopple. i get like 25 exp for
killing him now, why not let me re-gain some ofthe exp he stole, not all,
just some of it, please?
Sibwarra
humble Druid/Create Mage
relative newbie to MUDding and frequently frustrated by change
From: Mugwump
Thursday, July 01, 09:37AM
Hope this won't get overlooked since this thread is getting old, but
i've been trying out things under this change, and thinking over the
situation. Well, I'm no expert, but it still seems that this very much
limits the xp running capacity of 100 mind creates.
From: Mugwump
Thursday, July 01, 09:38AM
argh, trying again....
Hope this won't get overlooked since this thread is getting old, but
i've been trying out things under this change, and thinking over the
situation. Well, I'm no expert, but it still seems that this very much
limits the xp running capacity of 100 mind creates.
The example of the laibon mentioned above is an interesting
one. I went and tried it with my level 50 self. Cost me near 400
mana, though afterward i still had my greater summoned with
me. Maybe a level 35 would too, more likely they'd have to
summon more gimps than i did (i used only the greater and two
homuncs to tank). So basically a level35 create would have to
throw everything they have and then some to get that big xp
payoff. Meanwhile, any other char type could be running in the
nearby jungles, and in the same amount of time probably get
double the xp for much less risk.
My experience as a 100 mind create is that they're less efficient
at killing lots and lots of same level mobs than other characters
i've played so far. Using a doppel or other charmie tank evens
things up, but not if they are grouped and you are only getting
half the xp. Creates are less useful in groups than most, having
either low hitroll or damroll or both makes them poor hitters,
they have a limited number of damage causing spells(which
should be the case... otherwise there would be no difference
between cause and create, yada yada), and no useful support
spells ( that aren't vid or guh spells). I always thought that the
ability to kill bigger tougher mobs than anyone else was the
tradeoff for all that. Now the benefits of being able to do that
aren't there either.
The idea of making charmies get less % xp than a real person of
the same level sounds good on paper. I wonder if its even
possible though, since that would mean the charmie being one
level for hit table and another for xp splitting. Also, the benefit
of that to a 60 mind create would be the same as the benefit to a
100 mind mage. I like the idea of giving the charmies some
armor rating, maybe its possible for that to be based on mind?
Also, it would make more sense for elementals to be based on
mind instead of casters hp. Con mages would still have the
advantage of doppels with huge hp, while dex mages, like me,
have doppels that can flee better. Which reminds me, maybe all
charmies should start with wimpy 0 too.
From: Darkheart
Thursday, July 01, 11:22AM
unless things have changed drastically, i've never
understood how people use charmies and stuffs to
gain xp more efficiently. I understand the carrying
part, but that can easily be circumvented by simply
having the dop rest, then ungrouping, or just having
the guy rest in the other room.
as far as killing goes, with any mage i've used
thus far, especially those with high mind, i've
never deviated from stuns -- most i ever did
was probably a wither on a stunned mob, or
flamestrike/weaponry, etc.
From: Infidel
Thursday, July 01, 11:29AM
I used doppels even on savanna mobs to level, I didn't use
roots, I just kept making more doppels as they died.
I was a strength mage and it helped with gaining xp a lot.
2 stuns = 1 doppel and they lasted many fights.
Depends on char type, con and even dex mages don't benefit
as much from having charmies tank.
From: Mugwump
Thursday, July 01, 12:26PM
stun? wfw is pretty much non existent on mobs over level 40, about
half of my stuns, the mob is up the same round hitting me. Besides which
chant guh vya lak ex is not a create spell. Are you saying that create has
no spells that are useful to them for gaining xp? and if so, don't
you think that should be changed??
From: Infidel
Friday, July 02, 12:38AM
Yeah, sure seems unfair that you need to have 10 more mind
than the target, only cause can wfw the majority of mobs!
From: Darkheart
Friday, July 02, 10:16AM
I have no idea which planet you all are xprunning in, but
the mobs i get wfw's on are those that even a 60 mind
mage can whack. And even as a cause mage, i doubt
i used any spell other than stun to accumulate xp.
In any case, i personally think it a moot point when
i've had a full 3rd create with 300ish hps rack up
75mil.
From: Infidel
Friday, July 02, 04:04PM
But create are restricted to those few dumb mobs..
Cause can wfw any mob that isn't immune to idiocy.
(I'm not just talking about xp running btw)
From: Skar
Friday, July 09, 11:34AM
Personally, I'd like to see some way for create mages to team up with
their charmed mobs. Currently, in order to avoid losing xp, the master of
a charmed mob must be the group leader. Two mages, create or cause, can't
contribute their charmed mobs to an enterprise together, nor can they
contribute charmed mobs to a group unless they are the leader.
I don't have a suggestion for an alternate method for controlling charmed
mobs, but I think the current situation is a big disadvantage.
From: Davien
Tuesday, August 10, 02:24AM
At the risk of sounding smug, to all you people out there that said
it wasn't a big deal, just group, order, ungroup..........
ToLD YoU So!!! Damn capital o.
Davien Holyoake.
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