Posted by Daedulas on 07/06
just a thought here, would it be possible (poke imms) for an upcoming
Q&A to have a topic such as... ummmmm... lessee here... XP?
I, for one, am rather tired of the whole xp scene (boringboringboring)
while some people may play for RP purposes alone, I like to progress
my chars as fast as possible, and RP along the way. And I also
think that making it easier to level would encourage more RP,
because of boredom at 50.
just a thought, please append yours.
From: Ton
Tuesday, June 15, 08:51PM
I think the 'ignore it and maybe it will go away' line fits with the
imm staffs attitude towards players complaining about the xp scale.
For all the months and months of complaints from players, very very little
has been done based upon those complaints. Kinda makes me think, why
bother? Though based on those changes I am wondering if I will actually
play here as I once did. I sure haven't had the interest in mudding that
I once did, something that occured around the time of the xp changes, and
something that isn't unrelated. My 2 cents is that things still need
to be discussed regarding the scale.
From: LadyAce
Tuesday, June 15, 10:37PM
No, we're not ignoring it, but I'll readily admit that it's
a problem we haven't solved.
As far as Q & A goes, the purpose of the session is primarily to
answer questions, not to discuss problems, although that can be
part of what the time is used for.
The staff is aware of the problems, and what we currently lack is
a coherent solution. Eventually we'll come to some kind of agreement
or compromise, but no amount of discussion with mortals will bring
us to agree with each other, and that's what is missing right now.
I know you're frustrated, and I know you've been patient with us.
I am personally grateful for it, and I apologize for the slow speed
at which we are moving on this.
-LadyAce
From: Trample
Wednesday, June 16, 07:31AM
up the xp on mobs a tad, my 2 year old nephew could come up with
that solution. I mean honestly, just up the entire scale a tad,
tweak it. the new system isn't bad, it just needs modified to be
made less boring before we lose more long time players, and new ones
alike because they aren't having fun playing the game.
From: LadyAce
Wednesday, June 16, 10:11AM
And if we were all in agreement that that was what was needed,
then we'd do it. I'm saying that we don't agree enough even to
do that much.
From: Wraith
Wednesday, June 16, 11:30AM
Some random thoughts....
You're bored with Legend. You should go look at some other muds,
perhaps you'll find something more suitable for you at this
point in your life.
You don't like challenges until level 50... You pick fights with
mobs based soley on how much xp you know you will get from them
and not whether you enjoy fighting them because they are smart,
entertaining or challenging.
Your concern is for the present, you don't stop to take the time
and see how your suggestions will impact the mud 6 months, 1 year,
or 5 years from now.
Game balance is the most important part to consider when implementing
new ideas. Many ideas don't take this into consideration for the
mud as a whole. Headbutt is overpowered. Let's tune it down...
without considering how many skills and players that will affect...
not to mention mobs...
Things need to be changed NOW! Well... players seem to want
immediate changes, but taking the time to make those changes takes
time away from working on Legend's long term goals and possibly
changes those goals a bit too. If the long term goals are always
being modified and there is no time available to work towards those
goals, then they will never be reached...
Mobs need to be worth more xp... The only thing that will do is
speed up the cycle. You reach level 50 faster and become bored
faster too...
Quests are too hard! What can I say... some of them are meant to
be hard. :p Others could use more hints, but when players are
unwilling to contribute by telling imms where there are problems
and instead go looking for a cheat page... I don't see any way
that this will ever change...
You complain when mobs are too hard (in your opinion), but you don't
point out which are too easy... why should we take anything you say
seriously when there is this dichotomy...
The immortals do the majority of the work for Legend. However,
without players, Legend would be lessened. Yet, I don't feel the
players are doing their part. Part of it is just natural, players
come here for enjoyment and don't think about contributing for
various reasons. Others are just misguided... The squeaky wheel
might get greased... but broken records... they're just chucked
into the garbage...
There are always some people who take comments like this the wrong
way... Not all of them apply to everyone. There might even be some
players none of them apply to, but other unmentioned things might...
These are MY opions and not those of the imm staff. I'm sure there
will be some people who will need to respond simply because my
name is on this post... if that's your sole reason, don't bother...
- Wraith
From: Brede
Wednesday, June 16, 02:10PM
Just a thought on wraiths post here, "things need to be changed now" I bel
ieve is what you said. I believe its closing in on a year since
the xp changes have been made. And while there was many complaints at
that time by the players, even now, a year later there are still lingering
suggestions and complaints. And I would say most are somewhat
constructive. I think that few of us expected a solution right now, but a
year (or whatever it is, a long time) is getting up there.
My thoughts on the xp scale are that rewards for high level mobs still
aren't enough. There isn't that many glaringly wrong aspects of the scale,
if any. The time to get from 1 - 50th had been extended, but that is not
really the problem for most players. Its the sheer repetition of
killing mobs 1-5 levels lower than you. Maybe there is some other ideas
for ways to reward xp under skilltrees, but right now its kill kill
kill to get xp. (and quest, which isn't as effective as killing I am
afraid)
I understand the difficulty the imms are having with coming to a decision
on ONE direction to head to solve this problem. Maybe, just maybe, opening
up this discussion in part to the players would add some more direction
to the discussions. Let us see some of your thoughts for solutions and
give us the chance to comment on all of them. I am not saying that we
should be solving the problems, but one new idea can spark many. And
perhaps one of those will lead to a solution that everyone is content
with.
My only other comment regarding Wraiths post is where he says that the
players of legend do not do their part (with respect to the growth of
the mud, and exploration of new ideas, etc). Something that in general I
have to agree with him about. Granted he made a blanket statement about
all the players here, but overlooking that, a very small percentage
of the players here are active discussing ideas on this board. A small
percent write to the LT, RP actively, and add positively to the
atmosphere on legend all the time. BUT, the more incentive the players
in general see to help out, the more they will. I don't mean coupons for
ideas. I mean seeing ideas take form, seeing an imm or two show
interest in ideas and helping brainstorm them. There are a lot of ideas
from the players here, and most die before they get a chance to get
discussed because of lousy support, or poor channels to take the idea
through.
Some random thoughts... I'd love to see a legend discussion forum over
email, with players and imms involved. I know its been done. Maybe it
is worth looking into again.
Brede
From: Ariel
Wednesday, June 16, 06:50PM
Wraith- you say that players don't take into consideration the ways
in which our suggested changes would impact the mud in the future.
Let me ask you- how can we possibly do that? We are not privy to the
same information that imms are. I have no idea how making mobs worth more
xp would affect the mud in the future, so why don't you tell me? Maybe ins
instead of getting defensive you could -gasp- tell us what
the affects would be. As it is, I don't know why upping the xp for mobs
isn't a viable option. So why don't you try to convince me instead of
telling me that I'm a short-sighted whiner?
Would it be so difficult to keep players a little bit better informed
about the ideas imms have to tweak the xp scale? Is there some reason
to keep proposed changes a secret? All we receive now are
reassurances that "we're thinking about it."
Bleh, I'm done.
Ariel
From: Trample
Wednesday, June 16, 07:59PM
fine, I'll elaborate.
high risk xp, the bigger something is that you kill, the more
xp you get, that way there is both challenge and reward.
understand?
From: Wraith
Wednesday, June 16, 08:47PM
Regarding Ariel:
I pointed out that increasing the xp per kill would simple speed
up the cycle. Characters are able to reach level 50 faster and
become bored sooner which makes them just as tired of not just
the xp scale, but the whole MUD (only faster).
A large part of the problem is that old players became accostumed
to the old xp scale and the new one still feels unnatural to them.
There's not necessarily a problem with the scale itself...
In my opinion.
Regarding Trample:
I do not know anyone who remakes more often than you... I think you
are bored with Legend and only stay because you know the people here.
You feel you have too much invested in Legend to just leave. I don't
see any other reason somebody so vehemently opposed to the way Legend
works remains here. I didn't tell you to go away because you disagree
with me. I just said that perhaps Legend's goals may not be
compatible with your own...
Your elaboration merely confirms what I said. You do not care
about the difficulty of the kill. Take away the xp, and you feel
no enjoyment for 'merely' defeating your opponent. It is just
the xp that you see as a reward that makes you happy. You get less
xp so you are less happy...
- Wraith
From: Wraith
Wednesday, June 16, 09:03PM
Regarding Brede:
The xp scale was convenient, but players are always pushing for
swift changes to various things; skills, spells, rent, xp, etc.
Constantly tweaking all of these things is rather draining on
the immortal staff and detracts from getting things accomplished.
My comments on player contributions was quite general. Many players
do put in idea, bug, and typo reports which help and are greatly
appreciated. However, the player base could do more by pointing
out unknown problems. Which quests need more hints. What could be
done to improve the flavor of an area. Engaging in quality
discussion on this board; etc. For example, a player was stuck on
a quest for 2 1/2 hours the other night. He complained that the
quest was broken, but it turned out he was just missing a step.
Was it the player's fault for not paying enough attention or should
there have been more clues and a way to see how far you were on the
quest? Without input from the players, how can we tell?
- Wraith
From: Ariel
Wednesday, June 16, 09:57PM
Mmm, the idea that increasing the xp on mobs will make players
become more quickly bored is wrong, I think. At least, it doesn't convince
me. I've currently got 4-5 characters hovering between 35 and 45,
largely because I find that levelling above that range is more tedious
than I care for. If it's a question of -when- people get bored,
well, I can only speak for myself, but I'd rather be bored at level 50 tha
than at level 37. If the reason you stated is the only reason why
increasing mob xp isn't a viable solution, I really think that reasoning
needs to be rethought.
From: Diamond
Wednesday, June 16, 11:27PM
For a rare once, I have to agree with Wraith on most of his post.
A lot of lvl 50 just sit around, talking about how bored they
are. Why should it be faster to reach the point of ultimate boredom,
as I have seen a few lvl 50's call it?
I fail to see the logic that it is more fun to be bored at lvl
50 than at lvl 37. Boredom is boredom, that's it. I like the new
xp scale, and the point about newbies leaving the game out of
frustration is just plain bs. It has never been easier for people
lvl 1 to 20 or so to level, a lot easier than before. Should this
discourage them?
Diamond
From: Ghandi
Thursday, June 17, 12:29AM
That may be how it is for unclanned but for clanned, the levelling
process is the boring part, the fun begins at 50.
LA also pointed out what may be the main problem, it seems you
all have to agree on something before a change is made.
Wouldn't it be better if you all just contributed your opinions
but the decisions were made by one person? This system is just
way too slow, you may as well listen to the players too as it is.
I always wondered why other MUDs developed at a much faster rate.
From: Trample
Thursday, June 17, 07:43AM
Wraith, you once again show your true colors and continue to
publicly insult me, what need is there in that?
yes, I'm bored with the xp scale, so I should just leave?
that would the same as telling you that the majority of morts
here don't like you (which is true), so you should leave.
Granted, I know you don't care, but I still wouldn't say it,
because I do actually respect you, being that you had to actually
do something right in the first place to earn your position.
and as for your implications that I don't care how hard a mob is,
so long as I get xp is false, try reading my post instead of scanning
for the parts that you simply don't agree with and arguimg them.
After talking with a few imms about the subject in generel, I
honestly think high risk xp is the way to go, for the purpose
of reward and challenge, as I said in one of my previous posts.
Now, lets look at what you say.
you claim that if I'm bored with it, I should leave, quit altogether.
1- I quit at nothing, I'll never give up, deal with it.
2- if you are bored with life, should you give up and commit suicide?
3- I made a simple suggestion, and you virtually bit my head off
for it, and if I remember correctly, I was asking for morts opinions,
I've talked to enough imms to know the difference in opinion there.
But I assure you, Wraith, that the majority of the people (morts)
on this mud disagree with you saying that people don't enjoy just
simply killing a mob.
but most all mobs should have a reward for killing it, that being
xp, gold, or EQ.
you see, given the opportunity of killing one mob worth 30k, or
killing 10 mobs worth 10k each, 90% of this mud is going to choose the
higher xp, that's just human nature, and if you don't agree, your
entitled to that. Yet I have yet to hear you make one valid point that
the xp scale should remain the way it is, can you even offer one?
please, if you can I'd love to hear it.
From: Wraith
Thursday, June 17, 10:09AM
Replying to Trample again:
You said it... "but most all mobs should have a reward for killing it,
that being xp, gold, or EQ." Just surviving the battle isn't on your
list... You seek the reward, the experience gained, without it you
don't enjoy killing mobs. Look at it this way. If you didn't know how
much experience you were getting from killing mobs, which ones would
you prefer to fight? I'd bet you'd move to killing mobs with gold or
'good' equipment. You still wouldn't seek the enjoyment of winning the
hard fight. What you want is the tangible reward to prove how good you
are.
I have no idea why you claim I am insulting you or suggesting that you
should leave. Perhaps you should calm down and not take my posts as
personal attacks on you. My original append came from the open
invitation by the original poster, "just a thought, please append
yours," which didn't seem to limit the thoughts to mortals... When I
replied to you directly, I was taking your specific case into account
and I don't see any insult in expressing facts? I might not have been
clear in my first append. By 'you,' I meant you the reader and was not
replying to a particular poster.
I didn't say you had to leave because you were bored. There are
certainly other options open to you... Also knowing when to stop or
move on isn't quite the same as quiting... A magazine salesman who
tries to sell magazines to somebody without money isn't going to
succeed. Even if he did, he wouldn't be helping the other person...
The xp scale changed two things. Players have been ultra-focused on
only one aspect; gaining xp. The xp to move up levels was also
adjusted. The goal of changing the xp scale was to make it easier at
lower levels, remove the level 6 hump, prevent power leveling, smooth
the transition between levels and slow the rise to level 50. The
change has done all of these things. When you suggest that the xp be
raised on mobs, you are also going to make it easier to power level
and easier to reach level 50. Not all, but a majority, of people
who complain about the xp have had several level 50 characters and
seem to have no desire to play at the lower levels. I don't see a
valid reason to humor people who are unwilling to play the whole
game and don't want to work at making a level 50 character.
- Wraith
From: Diamond
Thursday, June 17, 11:02AM
Err, Ghandi, how come you always assume that everyone agrees with
you? Some of us clanned people (and yes, more than just me)
will probably have fun at lvl 50, but we also have a lot of
fun at the lower levels. Please do not assume that every
pkill-enabled here dont have fun until lvl 50.
Diamond
From: Infidel
Thursday, June 17, 04:01PM
Perhaps he excluded those who're too wimpy to go beyond 39 on purpose?
From: Ronnie
Thursday, June 17, 08:13PM
I dont know Wraith, either your lying or you happen to be incredibly
naive. When you point someone's habits out and then tell them to just
get out, it sounds a lot like your snapping at them.
Next on the agenda, the whole point of people doing things is for a
reward of sorts. We move from place to place for the reward of doing
something else, we buy equipment for the reward of new stats, and we
kill mobs for the reward of gold, equipment, or exp. Are you saying that
if one of your morts fought a mob, and killed it after using most of your
hp, and it had nothing on it and gave you 5 xp, you would be happy with
having killed it? Besides learning not to waste time on those things again
it amounts to a worthless experience.
Last, I think what would be most fun of all would be to make almost all
the mobs so tough its only possible to kill maybe two or three at a time,
and have them be worth the exp of 5 current exp mobs. All the thrill and
danger of fighting something that could kill you when you screw up, and
maybe leaving enough mobs for everyone so people arnt ranking people out
for "Taking their mobs" or "Stealing their area". This is one of the
newer developements of the exp system that really disheartens me, when
people get uptight over someone else killing mobs in an area they are in
like they had exclusive hunting privileges.
From: Kundry
Saturday, June 19, 11:02AM
You know Wraith. It's strange that I don't enjoy killing the pardoner at
high levels, nor do I go out of my way to kill him at those levels,
even though he does give a rather substantial reward for an easy kill.
Yet I too would love the xp on the mobs to be raised, and I'd
love that I could get say...just a little more than 50k when I risk
my neck killing a mob like the leenan sidhe.
Is that not enjoying killing the mob at all?
I love the gaming aspect of the mud. But that love is balanced by
the intelligence not to regularly waste my time on extremely difficult
mobs who give next to no xp when compared with their difficulty.
Exaggerated case in point would be ferdia. A sort of ingame example
of ronnie's really hard 5xp mobs.
There've been many constructive comments, as well as criticism, given
by players over the past year when this new scale was put in. All of them,
well, that's unfair but, most of them, at least
from my point of view, have been ignored.
We've basically just been told to live with it, and we have been
It's not nice to be called a whiner or the implied equivalent every time
this particular matter is brought up.
We players may not be imms, but some of us do spend quite a bit of time
here, and unbelievable as it may seem to you, we do care about this place,
the big picture, etc etc etc. It's just that as morts we see a different
picture, and that's only right.
As to the fun for pkiller beginning at 50 (this is a general reply) its
definitely that way for me, not just for pkillers but for unclanned as
well, because my characters are almost always extremely renty. Therefore,
in order to explore the possibilities of a character I've designed, I
usually NEED to hit 50 to try them out fully. So yes, I'm sometimes
bored at 50, but not usually, and I'd still rather be bored at 50,
whether clanned or unclanned, than bored to death on elands at 35.
And also, if I didn't enjoy the challenge I wouldn't BE killing hard
mobs at 50 like Johnny, in spite of the fact of not needing his eq.
Because really, he's not worth the xp to kill. He's worth the FUN>
But I don't want to kill 1000 johnnies to level to 50. I'd like the
scale to be made just a little more reasonable after 35.
Kundry
From: Lethargio
Monday, June 21, 05:09AM
one of the main concerns of the change of the xp scale was the fact
that it took away the thrill of killing a huge mob. At any level,
killing easy mobs that are slightly lower leveled than you got you
way more xp than killing one, super-hard tough mob. Before the change,
this wasn't the case. I once spent 2 hours trying to kill the
Nucklavee by myself, but I only got 120kish xp. I could have
just killed 12 llamas for that kind of xp. Killing the Nucklavee
was exciting and fun, but it was a big let down for the xp he gave.
(Plus he ripped up half my eq) Personally, I think the xp scale is
fine; it balanced out all of the problems they had with the previous
xp scale. But when you make it so that killing small mobs over and over
the easiest way to gain xp, it makes it very tedious and boring.
Personally, I would like to see more mobs like the dhurtah that actually
use pkill type of tactics against players, but make the reward of
killing them significantly better. That way, it wouldn't necessarily
increase the rate which players get to 50 because they would be dying
more often, but at the same time getting that "thrill" into mobkilling
that has been missing in Legend for some time.
Leth
From: Infidel
Tuesday, July 06, 08:39AM
"but since we don't report back to you on all of them.."
Actually it's because you only seem to respond to those with
obvious flaws.. The rest are left in limbo making me wonder
whether I should dig up the hundreds of past suggestions
I've made that recieved only positive feedback from players
and repost them. Now I know there's no chance of anything
new being coded no matter how small and balance issues won't
be addressed til skill trees, I won't bother.
But what of those things like the change to charmies, having to
group them to order them. Just about everyone protested, it's
been found to be nothing but an inconvenience as everyone's just
grouping/ordering/grouping. It just seems someone's made a
mistake and won't admit it. So what happens, we have to suffer
the consequences as well as feeling like we're being ignored.
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