Posted by Ghandi on 05/05
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From: Ghandi
Tuesday, May 04, 03:40AM
hmm.. me try again.
Why not to use stun vs stun AND headbutt bait:
Stun costs a lot of mana, headbutt costs nothing.
Stun can't be spammed for first attack unlike headbutt.
Both stun and headbutt can be tumbled but stun also SURGES.
1 good point for stun, it can wfw but still doesn't balance
out the good & bad points. I think the surging should be
yanked.
From: Darkheart
Tuesday, May 04, 04:06AM
headbutt also fails and sets you to sitting, stun doesn't.
maybe not as often as surges, but it is a pretty big drawback esp
against str fighters.
btw, can the code be changed that bash get's tumbled before it lands?
right now, unlike headbutt or stun, bash can be tumbled while sitting.
dh
From: Ghandi
Tuesday, May 04, 06:08AM
I'd rather fall on my face with headbutt than backlash with
stun. Anyway, I was talking about headbutt & stun bait.
Which do con mages use vs low con snipers? Surely a mage
should use spells but headbutt's usually the best option
because it works more often. Wfw's are to make up for the
spell cost but I see no reason for surging.
From: Amadio
Tuesday, May 04, 08:06AM
I've never backlashed against anyone or anything that had more than
10-15 points less mind than me. On the other hand, I've missed
headbutts--not had them tumbled, missed--against people/mobs with
a whole lot less con than me. And compared to wfw's, dazing headbutts
are pretty sad.
From: Ghandi
Tuesday, May 04, 08:10AM
That's strange, I backlash a lot with 20-25 more mind than others.
I agree, that wfw's are a lot better than dazing headbutts but
that's because headbutts cost nothing, a mage can go through
a couple of hundred mana on stuns in a fight which translates
to at least a couple of hundred of their own hps if it were
used for healing instead.
-shrug- whatever, I'll just use headbutt despite having enough
mind to wfw. Better than not doing anything for 6 rounds/fight
because of SURGE.
From: McDonald
Tuesday, May 04, 05:40PM
Not to get in a whole discussion, cuz this has been discussed
to death. Stun with wfw is overpowered, not Headbutt.
From: McDonald
Tuesday, May 04, 05:41PM
Also, you state conclusions I disagree with and give no reason
for them. Ie wfw better than dazing headbutts cuz headbutts
cost nothing. Thats bull, theres no cause and effect here.
Wfw were added cuz someone said 3rd circle mages sucked, this
whole thread is laid upon bs logic.
From: Ghandi
Tuesday, May 04, 09:48PM
Umm, I didn't say wfw are better than dazing headbutts because
headbutts cost nothing. Wfw's are better cos they last longer.
How many times must I explain it. Wfw's counter the mana
cost making it worthwhile for high mind 3rd circle.
So why does surging exist? to counter the benefit of wfw?
Then consider a 60-70 mind 2nd circle, there's absolutely no
point in using stun over headbutt except as a last ditch effort
as you may make with warcry.
Reducing the mana cost of stun, remove surging and wfw's or
at least downgrade wfw's while making stuns less likely
to be tumbled than headbutt will balance it somewhat.
That would only make it slightly better than headbutt without
considering things like the inability to spam stun.
From: McDonald
Tuesday, May 04, 11:38PM
I agree that 2nd circle should use skills instead of stun,
why is this unreasonable to you. There doesn't have to be
any reason to use stun over headbutt, I think thats the
problem, you act like it was written somewhere that stun
is better than headbutt. Ok, it costs mana, big deal.
Spells work better for 3rd circle mages, 2nd circle have
access to them, they are definately not tailored for 2nd
circle because 2nd circle have access to so many things.
2nd circle are some of the most powerful because of the options
available to them. When I played 2nd circle I primarily used
skills, but the fact is there is one instance when stun is
preferable to headbutt, and thats when fighting ppl with super
low mind.
Sure maybe the mana cost for 2nd circle stun could be lowered, but
its not evident that it needs to be done.
You state things as conclusions without making your point, Ie
chant guh lak vya ex costs mana, where headbutt doesn't, therefore stun sh
should be better. arg stupid triggers.
What ive seen is that stun is practically no fail if the opponent
has super low mind, so I think surge is probably a good idea,
though I don't have much experience with it.
I mainly posted to comment on the flaw in your logic
From: Ghandi
Tuesday, May 04, 11:49PM
There's no flaw in my logic, it costs mana so should be better
but right now it's the opposite. Both can be tumbled yet
stun also surges a lot, then there's the other benefits
of headbutt of being able to spam, and not cost you the
equivelant of 50 or so hps if they flee and you miss with
a stun. (ie. with roots, augment or cure crit)
It seems WFW's are meant to make up for all that but it's a
silly way to go about it. Like giving mages the ability to
snipe once in a while and once again increasing the luck
involved which is really killing the fight system IMO.
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 12:00AM
Yes there is a flaw in your logic, its not that since it costs
mana it should be better, its that you make the statement but
dont even discuss the underlying issues.
Just because it costs mana DOES not automatically mean that it
should be better, geez. Once again you state this but dont go to
the trouble to say why it is, thats the flaw, you say something
is fact but dont bother to explain why you feel this to be so,
and yet you base the rest of your argument on something im not
ready to concede. Why should it be better just because it costs mana,
2nd circle have access to many many things, they can't be best in
all of them.
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 12:03AM
Ok, it should be better because I could have saved pracs and
not learnt stun, it should be better cos I could have much
better stats if it weren't for the mind and spirit required
to cast the spell. Stun has always been a major factor
in being a mage at all, you may as well be a spam mage
otherwise. I figured these things would be obvious. -shrug-
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 12:17AM
Maybe next time you should choose not to learn stun then,
the mind and spirit required to learn stun is not wasted
by any means because of the way spells are set up, you
gotta learn all the words and put them together in
combos, so when you learn stun you gain all the other spells.
Spells have a fixed mana cost, as it should be, part of
playing the game is deciding how you should set up your
char, the fact that 2nd circle people can be spam mages
is an advantage in itself and part of the reason why just
because stun uses mana it should not necessarily be better.
Id go out on a limb and say until spamming is taken out
that id be of any 2nd circle chars benefit to spam.
I disagree that stun has always been the thing when playing
a mage, id say that blind was in the past. When I played
Beam, which I think was an ok setup for a 2nd circle at the
time I did not use stun as a primary thing. Only against
fighters which there were very few of at the time.
Considering how well it works against fighters I don't
see the problem. If your wanting your 2nd circle to be
as effective as a 3rd circle Id say your hoping for the
wrong thing. Id say you get the mind and spirit for
chant vina vant lak ex blind and blind and stun is just a bonus. High mind
on a 2nd circle is a waste imo.
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 12:37AM
I'm not saying 2nd circle stun should be as good as 3rd
but still think it should be better than headbutt.
I also don't think spells should have a fixed cost, that
should be based on level along with damage spells but
first cast level needs fixing so a mage can actually use
spells to fight at lower levels.
Anyway, getting away from the point of the thread and I
think I've said all I wanted.. at least once :)
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 12:43AM
Yah maybe variable xp cost would be neat, and I think I
agree with you mostly. Just not that stun should be better
than headbutt. And you give no good reason why it should be.
Secondly trying to compare stun to headbutt is kinda silly
because they are different and work on different opponents,
just the fact that you have both to choose from is to your
advantage.
As ive said I don't feel that strongly about any of this,
I just wanted to point out that you said stun should be better
than headbutt without giving any reasons. I gave reasons,
why in the case of 2nd circle it shouldn't be better.
If you were arguing that 3rd circle stun should be better than
headbutt id say that you were right it should be slightly better
because 3rd circle doesn't have access to as many different things.
They ARE locked in with stun to a certain extent, whereas
2nd circle are in no way locked in with being mages.
It might be interesting in the future if learning certain
words weakened ones fighting ability. This could lead after
skilltrees to Tara chars that weren't mages for instance,
of course many skills would need to be added and it would
need to be balanced, but it might be cool.
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 12:57AM
Ok, back in your court.. why should headbutt be better
than stun as it is now? mana cost aside even.
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 01:04AM
I didn't say that it should be better, for a 2nd circle mage
each is better in different situations. They can't be easily
compared this way, and probably shouldn't be.
From: Darkheart
Wednesday, May 05, 01:06AM
One wfw is good enough to make all the difference in the world
whereas one daze is laughable. 35 pts of mana isn't that much
considering most wfw'able mages come with enough mana to cast stuns
throughout the fight.
The reason why headbutt is preferable over stun against a char
that is susceptible to both is because of the nature of such
chars. They tumble a lot of things thrown at them, and chances
are that your mana will be spent in doing either direct damage or
healing/other spells that cannot be dodged/tumbled. Thus mana becomes
an issue; but otherwise, the benefit of stun is such that the mana
cost and surges are negligible.
dh
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 01:10AM
Id say the only way you can compare skills and say one should
be better than another, is in issues of balance, but also
I think there is a danger in this too. One char type shouldn't
necessarily be balanced when compared to another char type.
If every time someone makes a new type of char we feel that
we must rebalance the system, things could get very stale
where everything does come down to luck as some say.
Of course while a mud is in beta this is natural, but it
does lead to some frustration on the players part always
having to readjust, but hey the mud is in beta. So I guess
we have to deal with it, but just cuz in certain circumstances
one skill is better than another, is not a concrete reason
why things should be rebalanced.
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 01:09AM
Well I'm comparing against a target that is both headbutt
and stun bait.. Sure I'd use stun vs a plain con fighter
and headbutt on a dex or str mage but when I have the
option of either.. Headbutt's a whole lot better.
I fought a sniper the other day, first time I used stun
and had to run from the fight after surging a couple and
him tumbling another. Next fight I used headbutt and won
with 250+ hps to spare.
Sure just 2 fights doesn't tell you much as unfortunately
so much is based on luck but surging really makes the
choice an easy one. I guess headbutts could surge too? :)
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 01:20AM
Please don't bring wfw's back into it either, I acknowledge
that stun shouldn't be improved over headbutt without any
adjustment to wfw's which are just plain outa wack.
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 01:28AM
Ok, stun surges, which correct me if im wrong, doesn't do anything
to your char? YOu still lose the mana? And of course they
can also backlash, but really that shouldn't happen much at all
if you got more mind than them. What happens when headbutt
fails? Your set to sitting, which is a BAD thing.
Second, against a fighter stun is very reliable, whereas
headbutt is fairly reliable. So I don't see much in that
argument.
From: Darkheart
Wednesday, May 05, 01:32AM
stun surges, lags your char for two combat rounds, which could
be fairly bad -- but nowhere near as bad as failing a headbutt,
which does happen regardless of the con your opponent might have.
dh
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 01:39AM
Nooo, this's my whole point, headbutt is more reliable.
Both are tumbled but stun also surges. Once in about
10 fights you may fall on your face headbutting one
with much less con, with 25 mind more than your target
you will backlash about 1/2 fights and backlashing's
worse than falling on your face. Most would have more
than that though and missing headbutts is so rare vs
even 70-80 con it's not really something to be considered
compared with surging which occurs a lot.
You must also consider fighter type balance, a con mage
will squish a dex mage, a con mage will squish a sniper
but a dex mage will have a hard time with even snipers.
It's mostly due to headbutt, it sucks vs mobs but it dominates
pkill.. Headbutt should probably be changed to do damage
with a chance to stun or set sitting based on stats instead.
Anyway.. headbutt is more reliable than stun i tells ya!!
From: McDonald
Wednesday, May 05, 02:03AM
Well you make a better argument anyway, oops actually
make an argument that is hehe. But one thing that must
also be considered is, that quite a few ppl have almost
no mind, whereas not many ppl have under 30 con, or if they
do they probably don't expect to be able to kill anything.
Ok both are tumbled, im not sure they really are tumbled
an equal amount, thats another discussion, but
-stun surges, is tumbled and backlashes and hardly
fails against low mind ppl, which there are a bunch of.
Face it, if your fighting another mage you probably shouldn't be
using stun.
Headbutt on the other hand, is tumbled and fails quite
often even on ppl with fairly low con, and makes you sit
when it does. Me a con fighter, failed every headbutt on
berzerko in pk tourney, which was about 3 attempts I, though
he probably has 80 or higher con.
-stun dont make you sit when it fails, which is a decent
tradeoff I think. It as you say all comes down to player
types, you need to choose carefully which skills or spells
you use. Theres lots with no mind running around, but very
few with no con running around.
Its very important to realize I think that con is integral
to everyone that is serious about doing well with their
char. Before new fight system I predicted con/mind mages
would do very well in new system. Headbutt has to be
setup for working against ppl with high con, and also
with lower con also, which is why I would say that it
often times fails against ppl with fairly low con, whereas
on the otherhand stun hardly ever fails on ppl with low mind.
Id say stun is fine myself, Id like to see choke, warcry
reevaluated. Bash and elbow seem to be fine.
What would be cool, is if Rufus would talk abit about how
headbutt works, though I doubt he would read this whole
thread.
From: Ghandi
Wednesday, May 05, 02:28AM
last word for me!!
From: Darkheart
Wednesday, May 05, 03:02AM
Comparing headbutt to kick, i'd have to say kick is more reliable.
But headbutt is probably far more reliable than bash. This is also
because kick cannot be tumbled, headbutt can be tumbled when standing,
and bash can be tumbled when sitting.
It's risque to compare two options that are given to one character
and claim one's more reliable than the other simply because it is so
for that character. I personally found kick to be the most reliable
when using a fighter with all three fight stats maxed out, but that
doesn't mean the other skills are totally lacking or that they don't
have occasions when they are far more useful.
dh
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