Hi all,
It's with a little trepidation that I approach this subject, which has
evoked so many strong feelings among us. But I feel that it is
important that I issue a sort of caution here, and state my opinion.
Jean's behavior has violated both the social codes and the administrative
rules of LegendMUD. The administrative issues will be dealt with, and
so I turn my attention to the social angle. This community has the
right to be self-regulating with respect to who it accepts and who it
rejects. But as we seek to regulate our social discourse, I ask you to
consider carefully the means at your disposal.
One of the previous posts suggested a lynch mob against the player.
That's over the line, even as a joke. The true punishment that you
can impose -- and really, the only one either mortals or immortals
can impose, is separation from the community. Exile.
I sincerely hope that events do not place me in the position of
defending a player who I quite frankly find annoying, and who has
broken the rules. I do not say this lightly, but here is a player who
I will not fight to keep. I most certainly do not ask you to like
him, or to agree with him. The immortal staff will deal with his
violations to the extent of its jurisdiction, and I hope that the
social community does the same.
I do not ask that you make this a place he can live in -- only that
you consider the fact that this must be a place in which the rest of
us will continue to live. In anger, in annoyance, in frustration,
we are still bound to those same administrative rules and social
codes which he has violated.
-LadyAce
From: Wuss
Wednesday, April 28, 01:34PM
Well said, but there is a lot of lynch behavior that is tolerated
off-the-boards, for example the attitude toward Arsene or some of
the members of the Grendel clan.
I personally find it less than optimal that these things do happen,
but I also see no point in stemming that reaction. Sure incitement
and such is destructive to a community, but I feel there should at
least be some leeway in expressing contempt at somebody else's
behavior -- like the debate that used to go on between pk and non
pk.
Most of us here are adults (legally... then again, who knows) and
are able to see that most reactions they receive are from their
own doing. Not often have I seen players that get exiled and
isolated of things that weren't his doing or his responsibility --
and i think 'lynch mob' behavior is just another way of imposing
social standards on people without calling admins for every
little bickering.
Wuss
From: Ton
Wednesday, April 28, 02:19PM
Well you certainly can't say this is a common occurance here, have
ing so many players speak out against someone, so strongly. Not even
with Arsene were the comments all on one side, nor were the
opinions voiced so loudly by so many people. To have someone come into
"our" game, refuse to try it, and immediately start picking it apart
is more than just annoying to me. Its insulting. It is a deliberate
attempt to devalue the time I have spent here.
I am not sure for me that the spam is the problem, as much as watching
someone come here, and start insulting me without provication. By posting
here in the manner Jean has, I read it as an attack on the mud, imms,
and players. "What we are doing isn't good enough" Etc.
Society (even cyber-society) has always felt it had the right to choose
who is a member of that society. Be it just or not, we still should be
able to choose if that is what we want. In the back of my mind I feel
badly for Jean, and ashamed that I would treat someone this way. But
my patience is gone, my temper is high, and his attitude is beyond
what I think we need to deal with on a daily basis on this mud. The
posts alone might not cause this, the attitue alone might not, but when
you consider everything together, the insults, the spam, the disregard
for other peoples feelings, rules, and opinions, and above all, the
"mightier-than-thou" attitude, I am not sure many of us want to deal
with something like that during our "fun" time.
I can't say that I like that we have done it, but we've taken the only
method we have at our disposal for removing someone from this society.
(as players) We've posted, and that's where our vote counts and is
tallied.
Rambling now. Just want to say that doing it over again, I would still
vote to be rid of Jean. -shrug- Can't say I am without regrets
that it had to be done though.
From: Jean
Wednesday, April 28, 05:09PM
LadyAce writes:
How so?
Nods. That doesnt mean a community is right in their
action, but its certainly true.
One of the previous posts suggested a lynch mob
against the player. That's over the line, even as a joke.>
Im glad you atleast agree with me on that.
I sincerely hope that events do not place me in the
position of defending a player who I quite frankly find
annoying, and who has broken the rules.>
How have i broken your rules?
From: Darkheart
Wednesday, April 28, 08:50PM
We asked you to stop quoting, you still do.
From: LadyAce
Thursday, April 29, 08:52AM
Yes, as Darkheart said, you have chosen to defy a direct request of
the head of administration. You may not agree with her decision, but
you are obliged to bow to it as a citizen here. You can appeal the
decision to Kaige ([email protected]) or argue with Sandra about the
virtue of her decision, but insisting upon violating a direct request
-- quoting someone asking you to knock off the quoting, goodness me --
is just asking to make people upset at you, and less inclined to listen.
And I suppose, if you do indeed wish to communicate, you might also
consider the wishes of the people you are trying to communicate with.
After all, there are two parts to communication, what the speaker may
say and what the listeners may hear (not to mention all the perceptions
of all those things) -- and if your audience says loudly and clearly,
as this one has: "The ->manner<- in which you communicate is interfering
with our ability to listen to you and consider what you are saying."
then a sincere speaker will modify his or her approach. After all,
is not your message currently more important to you than the medium?
You may decide that your audience is silly, with their little quirks
about how they like to listen, but continuing to berate their express
wishes is even sillier.
And as for the subject of banning, heaven help us, but you're no where
near banning. We've probably banned fewer people than we ought to have,
over the years -- and while this liberal attitude towards long-time
abusers of the system is on a decline, you simply haven't placed
yourself in that category.
-LA
From: Jean
Thursday, April 29, 02:01PM
in append 4, Darkheart writes:
j-
d-
what, now asking makes rules :-p? when ladyace first
posted the beginning of this thread, sandra had only
-asked- me to stop. Now unless theres a rule that says
that you do everything an admin -asks- you to do, i
didnt break a rule there. Now shes -told- me to stop,
which is different. Perhaps theres a rule saying that
you have to do what an admin tells you to do. Id be
less surprised with this as ive seen it before. The
funny thing is that a little command could get rid of
most of the problem- just putting in a little code
allowing people to gag a person while using the read
next function.
From: Jean
Thursday, April 29, 03:21PM
in append 5, LadyAce writes:
I didnt know that defying a direct request from
-anyone- was against a rule. Now, when Sandra -told-
me to stop quoting, ah, well, then i can see how imms
would consider banning me or what not, just because
thats the way you people work. You find it too
irritating to persuade when a simple ban could
supposedly snuff the problem out.
Or be banned from posting, or banned from here Id
assume. Remember that I, too, have options.
I might send her a little mudmail telling her she might
want to see whats going on here..
People have been ignoring me for a while now- if a nice
little gag would be introduced for read next as wuss
has suggested, i think we could solve this problem in a
very amicable fashion.
I do, but theres only a certain amount i will bend. The
people I -most- want to communicate dont mind the
quoting much anyways.
One of the reasons why i love quoting- when i quote,
theres no way i can misinterpret what someone said in
a paraphrase because i dont paraphrase. True, i might
still misinterpret in my response, but the person might
be able to see more clearly where their communication
is ambiguous that way and learn for the next time.
manner<- in which you communicate is
interfering with our ability to listen to you and
consider what you are saying." then a sincere speaker
will modify his or her approach.>
As I said to someone else, if you had to deal with have
the insulting posts Ive had to deal with, Id doubt
youd be so kind. Nevertheless, I think im still pretty
good, despite the numerous opinions to the contrary.
Sure.
That would be putting it kindly for most of my
audience.
I find it interesting that you never mention what their
wishes are- that i dont quote. One of the silliest
wishes ive ever heard.
Well, that sounds nice.. but forgive me if i sound
sceptical.. ive been banned from 2 muds already for
much less.
What im dying to know is what exactly would put me
in that category- i would like to try to avoid it, despite
all appearances.
From: Jean
Friday, April 30, 01:05AM
in append 1, Wuss writes:
Off the board, people kill each other- its not quite the
same thing.. or is it? Either way you answer that
question, it wont benefit you :-p.
you and others have been expressing your contempt
for me for a long time now. nothing was mentioned of
that as far as i can see and i think thats fine- after all, i
express my contempt for some of the actions you guys
do too, he he :-p.
Reactions one receives depends on 2 things- (1) ones
own method of thinking (2) the methods of thinking of
the people reacting.
Certainly, most players are exiled for things that
theyve done. That doesnt mean, however, that what
theyve done is wrong.
The whole idea of lynch mobbing is barbaric- the u.s. is
ruled by a democracy, but lynching is still illegal
because the populace, in its saner moments, realized
that lynching is more negative then positive most of
the time (there are, ofcourse, lynches that border or are
revolutions.. thats something else :-p).
From: Jean
Friday, April 30, 01:06AM
(part 2 of 2)
in append 2, Ton writes:
You certainly dont need to deal with it. You could leave
the mud if nothing else. Or not be on the ooc discussion
board. Or just ignore my posts. Or get this nice little
message gag feature- thats the one im hoping for.
Disregard for other peoples feelings? You should talk.
Take a look at how people have been treating me; ive
been an angel in comparison.
Mightier? What might? Im level 6, for crying out loud;
just a little one exploring about a bit. I think what you
mean is the righter then thou attitude. Pretty much
everyone has that attitude, or wed all think alike. the
thing is, i like discussing my views, even when people
are somewhat abusive to me (im not a glutton for
torture, but i come close it seems :-p). id rather have
people dissing me to a certain extent then to have no
one to discuss things with is perhaps the best way id
put it. Like you, I too can stop reading your posts- the
difference being that I -want- to be able to defend
myself to the world through -words-, not through
banning or lynching.
Go ahead, vote, and hopefully discuss even more. Thats
what I want, thats what you seem to want. Where the
problem is i think is that you just want me out of here
whereas i have a far more open nature.
From: Vahn
Friday, April 30, 04:34AM
Well, as I see it he has broken the rules. Why not just depeate him?
he keeps quoteing when told to stop. And as far as I can see he
is also abusing the board system. Just look at all his messages!
Its seem's to me we have another Strife on the mud buy this guy
is MUCH worse. And whats more, he types too fast! >:]
Vahn Silverseed
