Posted by Wuss on 04/24
Just got my RAM upgraded to 32meg, and was just able to load
some of the logs that were too big to edit. Going through two of
those (against Orlandu and Barabas) I counted the amount of damage
done by wfw.
Against Barabas, there were 3 wfw's, each doing 231, 259, and 225 pts
respectively.
Against Orlandu, there were 2 wfw's, each doing 278 and 324 pts
respectively.
At both times, I had -100 acs, and of the same level as the two chars
mentioned above. I am not sure if i need to elaborate further on that
damage -- wfw's aren't rare (for 3rd circles) and when each wfw does
anywhere between 35-54% damage (against a char with 600hps) I think it
overpowered. Personally, I don't think it should last anywhere near
as long as it does now -- a dazing headbutt, for example, lasts 1.5-2.5,
whereas a wfw lasts from 2.5-4, even.
It has come to my attention, unless it was some freak accident, that
elbow does 1/3rd of its damage when it disorients. I wouldn't mind wfw's
too much if for every stunned round, it drained mana (15pts?) from the
mages, or if it at least were cut down to the level of other skills.
Wuss
From: Yi
Sunday, April 18, 04:30PM
Instead of decreasing the length of wfw's, I think it would be
a better idea to make the lengths of other stun skills
comparable.
From: Davien
Sunday, April 18, 06:38PM
Then you get back to a situation where whoever gets the
chant guh lak vya ex skill to stick wins. Maybe that would take away some
Oops, didn't see that coming.... percieved advantage that
people with high HP have at the moment, but is it really the
way that we want to go?
Here skill tress, here little skill trees...
Davien Holyoake
From: Wuss
Sunday, April 18, 07:03PM
Mmm. not to keep making fuss (hrm. good char name) or anything,
but currently, the eq is such that you can get a 100 min/con with
60dex and all 2nd circle spells, with +15 dam and +70 or so hps
with a relatively 'normal' roll... granted such chars are something
that i personally won't be making (i seriously can't seem to enjoy
playing non-str chars :p) but such a char would have all the hps
plus the wfw. Since you can still rip to shreds with a 5kg weapon
every now and then, damroll doesnt seem to make much diff.
Wuss
From: Mac
Sunday, April 18, 11:05PM
I think wfw's should be shortened and mana cost slightly reduced.
Para warcries in pk don't even last as long but I don't think
that or choke should be lengthened. It'd just mean luck playing
a bigger part in pk and it's bad enough as it is.
From: Ronnie
Sunday, April 18, 11:27PM
Id really like to see at dazing headbutt stuns lengthened. For the
few times they happen, they should last at least 3 rounds. As for WFW
length, I think the spell should be split to kere and vina instead of
just guh. WFW stuns from a cause mage can result in two immolates and
another stun, wherease create can.... sit there and hope for a high
damage roll. Taking the cause wfw down to 4 rounds max would give
just enough time for one immolate.
Either that or make immolate/firestorm wake stunned people.
From: Marauder
Monday, April 19, 06:31AM
From: Brede
Tuesday, April 20, 02:50PM
I agree that stun is quite powerful in comparison to other stunning
skills. But it also has drawbacks that other skills don't have. Such
as a mana cost, whether you hit or miss with it. I know that a lot of
spamming skills (headbutt, etc. in pkill waiting for the opponent to
enter the room so that you can get the jump on the person) occurs.
But with using stun, this is folly since it sucks up mana every time
you miss as well. Yeah it kicks your butt when you get wfw'd, especially
against a str fighter. But I don't think too drastic a change is
needed here. Ronnie's idea of immolation or firestorm waking the person
might be change enough. (after all, mages sacrifice ____ stats to get a
decent wfw, things that could be put into fighting abilities)
Brede
From: Wuss
Tuesday, April 20, 07:49PM
When a char with mediocre rolls have a choice of
100con/min 60dex 24str 30per 35perc
100str/min 60dex 40con 30per 35perc
100con 90dex 22str 30per 35spi (mmm, the above 35s should be spi)
at their disposal, it's really hard to convince me (hrm, 60min on the
one just above) that mages sacrifice much of anything for stuns.
No fighter char with hunt can get 100 100 100 anyway, so they are
all in the same boat -- each has at least two options to draw from,
with a valid tertiary option, be it mana or skill.
As far as 'spamming' is concerned, mages have no need. They have another
perfectly valid skill to spam, and wfw's are deadly be it in the beginning
or in the middle of a fight.
Wuss
From: Mugwump
Tuesday, April 20, 10:27PM
From: Orlandu
Wednesday, April 21, 12:22AM
well a mage might not be giving up other stats for stun
but for me to get all the words were a pain
this being my first mage and pkiller it was very hard to level
and get all the words, it may not be hard for you peoples
that have been here long and know where most things are.
well just my thoughts
well just my thoughts
oops
Orlandu
From: Ton
Wednesday, April 21, 12:48AM
Might be impossible to get 100, 100, 100 and hunt, but I think
my 100 100 95 and hunt is close enough. I think mages have an
advantage over other types in pkill, but I don't think wfw's are
what cause it, more their ability to have the flexability to have a decent
form of attack against all character types. I'd like to see mages (both
2nd and 3rd circle) not to be able to get expert fight skills at all
personally. -shrug- might happen one day, who knows.
Ton
From: Deft
Wednesday, April 21, 12:44AM
I just want to add my support in saying that it definately seems that
pkill is way too random and lucky cause you have certain attacks, that,
if they work, they will pretty much end the fight. You want to make
a good pkiller? make a character with one of these attacks, sacrifice
some stats for a healing ability so that you last long enough to land one.
Thats about it. I think we need more hps all round, so that person can
actually survive a 300hp attack, rebound, and have a chance, if they're
good to still win. Right now its, fight fight fight, until someone gets
a parabackstab or WFW stun, and its over. Thats no fun. Maybe if
it wasnt possible for a dex mage with 100 mind to have higher damageroll
than a str fighter with 100str, then WFW's wouldnt be so devestating.
Seems like wfws would be right in para with everything else if the
balance wasnt so thrown off by damage and hit eq.... yeah yeah, whatever,
I know that the first thing imms say is that damage eq is availiable to
everyone at a high rent cost etc, but when you have dex mages damage
capping, you wonder why anyone would need 100 str. Just some ideas...
Maybe the "zero" point for hitroll and damage roll should be raise to
50 or 60, so that most nonstr will have a hard time damage capping.
Or you could just give us more hps all round, ramble ramble. But a wfw
taking 350 hps off, is just dumb and random!
Deft
From: Wuss
Wednesday, April 21, 01:18AM
I have to admit that luck plays such a big role it's not even
funny. Basically, just as Deft says, all you need is a char with
a 'killer' skill that can last long enough for chance to use it.
If we had a wfw bash that kept opponents on the ground, a wfw kick
that knocked ppl off their feet, maybe things could be a tad bit
more interesting, but then it'd be back to the same deal - luck.
It is pretty silly that characters, when sacrificing spell ability,
either become perc chars or str/con dex chars, nearly almost always.
Fights like that get decided by a series of lucky rounds -- depending
on either who gets to land on equal stats, and who gets to rip when
the other 'slashes.'
Also, it would be interesting to have fighters trade pracs for stats.
Mages may lack a prac or two than they'd hope for, but most fighters
will have more than half a dozen sitting there doing nothing -- an added
disadvantage to a fighter since there aren't any more 'necessary' or
'useful' places to spend pracs on that would improve combat ability.
But in the end, it is troublesome when eq right now allows no room for
diversion -- with fighters, they invariably end up near 100 100 80,
making it dull to fight. Maybe we could raise the stat ceiling so
stats above 100 count for something -- would make for pretty crazy
mobs and highly specialized chars with, say, 200 constitution :)
100 is too easily attained, and it would be quite fun to mess with
the system so that it doesn't auto-cap a stat like that. It would
be infinitely intersesting to me to see how much damage a 150 perc
backstab could do :p
Wuss
From: Wuss
Wednesday, April 21, 01:28AM
as an afterthought, how about being able to 'learn' protection
from fire as a skill? would likely require high constitution..
and learning other skills as such. fighters having only the
protection of tumble against stun is quite icky, considering
the non-avoidable high damage spells that mess with gear.
From: Yi
Wednesday, April 21, 08:48AM
It seems like the general consensus is that mages are more
powerful in pk than fighters. It's easy to say "wait for skilltrees"
but people always say that. I was wondering-there was talk a while
back about building new +10 stat quests similar to the +10 spi
quest. At present, mages basically have a 10 point stat advantage
over non-mages, as it's pretty much useless to do the +10 spi
quest unless you're going to either cast spells or spam for
something. Which I believe is why you're seeing so many fighters
and snipers who spam for spells, or augment, or surgery.
With another +10 non-spi stat quest, it would be possible to
create a 100/100/100 with hunt, which would then be a pretty
attractive option.
Just a thought.
Yi.
From: Mac
Wednesday, April 21, 11:31AM
I don't think mages are more powerful in pkill at all, it's just
that wfw's are overpowered, if they don't occur the outcome is
probably 50/50 for a low mind/high damroll mage but many
are designed for increased chance of wfw and if they don't
get them, just like snipers & para backstabs, they'll lose.
Too much emphasis is being put on luck. It kinda defeats the
purpose of designing a good character which many of us enjoy
doing.
From: Wuss
Wednesday, April 21, 12:57PM
It is definately easier to use a mage, in my opinion, even
if it's a lowly mage -- since spells cannot be dodged in general
by a non-mage (with the exception of stun).
If wfw was toned down, then yeah, it'd only be like headbutt
really (except that it costs mana and can be used slightly more
reliably, I don't seem to tumble nearly as many stuns as i do
headbutts), and the game would be less of a luck game.
Although I doubt luck will ever play a non-important role in
pk, right now it plays a tad bit too much. How about increasing
the spell lag on a wfw to 3 rounds just like backstabs in pk
lag for 2? That would help a bit for the time being, since that
would make a few things a bit tougher. Or, we could just add
wfw bashes and kicks -- only works when the opponent has at least
10 less str/dex than you do, and you over 60 str/dex ...
You are bashed, and will probably soon stand up
cackle
wuss
From: McDonald
Wednesday, April 21, 01:34PM
I agree wfw is screwed. I felt that from the start. One person
who I won't name just had whine that 3rd circle mages suck, which
ive thought all along, not versatile enough.
You know if imms wanted this to be a more team oriented mud, they
could make it so 3rd circle could worse for wear anything, but make
em so weak they couldn't do any damage to speak of so they would
have to group with a fighter.
Second I've always said that saying there was too much luck
involved was stupid, but I see your point with the wfw either
going off or not making luck too important.
But is the problem really luck or imbalance? Variance in skill/
spell success is a good thing otherwise things would be boring.
Whats really whacked is the balance, say hypothetically if you
had stats that should be successful against another person.
Ie 100mind 20 conmage vs 100con 20 mind fighter
the mage has wfw the fighter has headbutt, ok say the skills
spells never failed if you had better stats than the
opponent. Of course I gave a bad example as far as the con/hp
of the chars goes but it seems pretty obvious wfw is
imbalanced.
imbalanced.
Once balanced properly, luck if statistically based on chars
stats etc etc is what makes fights enjoyable, no?
Maybe if we had different commands for each fight skill,
that allowed one to go for more damage with less chance of
success and maybe more time to execute.
Ie Bob leans back and prepares for a massive kick, or
Bill takes his time trying to set you up for a killer elbow.
hrm...
From: Wuss
Wednesday, April 21, 01:49PM
what would rock, imho, would be counterskills, but with lag the
way it is i doubt we'll see them soon. by counterskills we'd be
introducing rock-scissor-paper to the skill game, where a counter
skill would annihilate the opponent if he used a certain skill,
nothing will happen if he used another, and would annihilate the
counterskill user if he used something else. that way, you could
somewhat move luck to 'predicting,' which, one could argue, is less
luck than merely praying for a skill to land.
For example, you could type counterbash, which will annhilate the
opponent (beh, lets just say it bashes them instead) if they
bash, nothing would happen if they headbutt, but you'd take double
damage if they kick (and/or set you to sit for two rounds. woo).
Could have a variety of little things like that, with counterskills
having 2 round skill lag (with, say, 1 round window where they could
wait for the target skill they wish to counter), it could be
interesting cuz witholding from skilling could be a strategy, using
counterskills could be a strategy, or just ignoring it altogether
and using regular skills could be a strategy. Of course, counterskills
would cost pracs, and few might even come with hometown restrictions
so that mages will be mages (or, add counterskills for spells, too).
But since we have trees coming in the near future, guess we'll just
wait for those instead.
Wuss
From: Lancelot
Wednesday, April 21, 05:58PM
ok i dont thing wfw is that overpowered
say mages must have 30 more mind than target and have min 60
wfw just works very well against pure fighters
its the pure figters weakness is there normaly low mind
so its a bit of skill to know who your up against and exploit there weakne
elbows and bashes mess up mages well
find out what your up against and exploit weaknesses
and about that luck thing without it this game would be very boring
every fight would be the same and thus not fun anymore
well about adding another +10 stat quest
how would you make it so that other mages cant get it either
ohh one more thing i think if a 100 mind mage fights
a pure fighter with 25 mind (75 mind diff there)
i think that its not much luck there when you have 75 more
mind than you target, its just using the best skill agaisnt you
well just my thoughts
Lancelot
From: Wuss
Wednesday, April 21, 09:00PM
If fighters had a skill that could do upwards of 324 pts of
damage while the mage does 0, yes, i would think it fair. Snipers
have their ID and para bs, but even with damcapping every round
on a daze, you only get 170 pts as far as a fighter is concerned.
And that's with nearly 80 pts more str than those of mages, at least
60 or so...
From: Nosferatu
Thursday, April 22, 02:42AM
Why not give fighters something to do with those practices and add skills
like advanced and expert bash/headbutt, which require stats that only a
fighter could obtain. Expert parry as Ive seen doesnt do TOO much in what
Ive seen of it, but that extra percentage would be nice for us to boast an
brag about.
Nosferatu - The hard headed, and even thicker humped
From: Sandra
Thursday, April 22, 06:13AM
-throws in her two cents-
I don't believe that a single wfw stun, and ONLY a wfw stun does
upwards of 324 pts of damage. However, that is more than possible
with an immolate or two on the stunned victim. Just as raging
and then getting a para choke/warcry/stunning headbutt could
cause someone to damcap on the stunned/para'd victim, and at no
mana cost at all. Imagine if bash cost 30 mana each time you
used it. ;)
Anyway, two cents accounted for.
-Sandra
From: Wuss
Thursday, April 22, 02:44PM
If bash lasted as long as 4 rounds, I'd probably be whining about
bash -- and, uhm, last i checked, all those para/choke skills last
like, 1.5-2 rounds, whereas a wfw i've seen last up to 3.5-4.
And hell, I don't use mana anyway, make bash cost 30 mana and have
it wfw, like setting the opponent to sitting for 4 rounds or so while
I only lag for 2.. wait, no, bash lags for 3... yah, make it cost 30
mana, have it skill lag only for 2, give it a chance to wfw to such
a degree that the opponent gets set to sit for 4+ rounds, yep, that would
probably even odds a bit.
Why not make elbow cost 30 mana, make it to more than 14 pts of damage
when you disorient, have it do roughly the same amount of damage as kick..
Kick should cost 30 mana too, with a chance to wfw that would essentially
knock the opponent off his feet or do double damage.
Warcry could wfw by binding the opponent in addition to para.
Headbutt could wfw by, gee, dunno, keeping the opponent dazed for more tha
2 rounds?
Backstab could wfw by returning its para lag to 1 round.
Shoot could wfw by disarming like craaaaazy.
But seriously, wfw's average 200 hps, and just the fact that they last
long enough so you can use another skill makes it stuuuuuuuupid. None of
the other dazes or para's last nearly as long as a wfw -- and, hrm, weren'
the length of stuns determined by how many times you were attacked, making
heavy weapon wielder's stuns last longer (5 attacks compared to 12)?
I don't see how you can claim wfw isn't unbalanced when it only takes two
to win a fight -- barring me running around like my namesake and healing
like nuts (even then, I was still losing, but hey, that was after 4 wfws).
Knock wfw's down to 1.5-2 rounds just like any other skill, it still lands
far more reliably than headbutt and bash (for one, it has 0 chance of sett
you to sit even against a char 938042890583206 pts lower), which more
than makes up for its 35 mana cost. Sides, unlike headbutt, there is
NEVER a chance it knocks down both of you.
WUss
From: Tiamat
Thursday, April 22, 04:50PM
Strikes me ass kinda funny all you people going around whinning
abiout WFW's walk around with brainpower slightly higher than
piles of mineraly deficient dirt. It stand to reason if you dont like
getting WFw'd invest in some stats to avoid it. Otherwise do like
the rest of us with no Con, or Dex or whatever, learn to live with
your faults rather than constantly bitch and whine cause you might
actually lose a fight now and again.
Tiamat
From: Wuss
Thursday, April 22, 08:55PM
Well, coming from people who have little more constitution than
a newborn babe still tied to its mother by the umbrilical chord,
i have to ask why it is that getting smacked upside the head with
somebody about as large as a mountain can wake you up in a matter
of 1.5 rounds whereas, oh my, a 'powerful' blast of power can keep
them down for 3, 4, 5 rounds?
The simple fact of the matter is, there is much less return on fighters
investing on mind then there are for mages investing on other stats,
and when fighters are left with some "useless" stats such as spirit,
the gap isn't all that wide. Also, there are no fishshapes around for
us to invalidate all sorts of attacks from a mage.
Before you throw up your hands and scream whine, just take a good look
and see how much damage a wfw does. Do fighters have skills that allow
them to do that much damage while receiving 0? Think not.
Wuss
From: McDonald
Friday, April 23, 12:41AM
Oh, thought I would add: Before the skills were screwed with,
some of them at least could last a lot longer. Headbutts could
last a fairly long time, and warcries could last a very long time.
And whats, oops was neat about warcry was that it worked decent
even for those with 50 or so con also. Headbutt is pretty much ok
as is now I think, but wfw should be reduced to 3 rounds max I think.
Also warcry should be lengthened, not so much for pkill, but it
was real nice for mob killing. If it would go 5 or 6 rounds once
in a blue moon would cool. Since it has less chance of success
it would be more of a last resort type thing.
As it is now headbutt is much better than warcry it seems, which
is too bad cuz its one of the neatest skills I think.
From: Orlandu
Friday, April 23, 02:34AM
You fighters do much more damages then we mages
while we stand and attack we do crap damage
you fighters do decimates and rips
thats where you guys make your damage
ohh and when you bash that takes a big toll on us mages
if they were to change wfw then what would us mages use?
Bash, Headbutt, Warcry? i think we would end up a junk fighter
From: Rufus
Friday, April 23, 08:47AM
'Before skills were changed' ...
Before we re-worked the combat system, the most damage you could do
in a round was about 65 points of damage (raged, on a stunned mob, and
really really lucky). Normally, the damcap was 30. Everyone had
mutant hps (400+, etc), even people with next to 0 con. The logic
for stunning attacks was simple. There was 'stun 1 round, possibly
more depending on whether they randomly woke up the next round'
and 'stay completely stunned this round unless highly lucky, and
continue a normal stun into the next tick'. Well, you can imagine
with the slightly HIGHER damcap (approximately, oh, 4.3 times as
much as previously) that any stunning attack which had a 'full tick'
stun under the new system would be highly deadly.
(small side note, the # of attacks having a chance to bring you out
of stun was a side effect of the old code. Lower # of attack weapons
- anything higher than 5 weight 6 maxdam, the optimal - would do
less damage. it was actually the amount of damage that determined
the liklihood of a stun sticking.)
The 'logic' for stunning attacks is now much more complex, including
queues on which stun people lie (it's actually a sub-function of the
fight queue). We have a lot more control, but for some reason, which
I have yet to figure out, it's quite strange in the way it works.
Originally I had intended to to use something along the lines of
wait states, but they get updated vastly differently. With wait
states we can approximate the length of a combat round. Due to how
people in code get updated as far as position and combat length,
stun's a bit trickier.
Anyway, I'll look into the wfw code, but there was a time when we
had this argument (and you participated in it quite heavily, wuss)
in the exact reverse, where stunning attacks such as wfw's were not
lasting long enough =P
-Ruf
From: Wuss
Friday, April 23, 05:31PM
I'm still saying it doesn't last long enough, but not wfw just
regular stuns :p
I personally won't have much a problem with stuns being pretty
much all being 1.5-2 rounds -- i feel having all your skill lag
elapse while the opponent is stunned to be a heavy imbalance,
and if not, we should prolly change the skill lag on bash to 2 round
instead of 3.
Wuss
From: Adolfus
Saturday, April 24, 02:42AM
Ok um, Orlandu: What did you use before wfw?
Not that we weren't doing a lot less damage, but it seemed like on
stuns anyway we pretty much did the 30 max, and with rage went over it.
But ok I concede all that you say, but before changes some skills
had a chance to stun for a longer time than others. Um lets see
para backstab: real long usually, headbutt 2 rounds every time,
and warcry good for 2 rounds possibly a lot more.
Ok the damcap is all different but the skills value got changed quite
a bit in relation to each other also.
Ie, headbutt better than warcry now. It'd be neat if warcry still had
a chance to go 3 rounds. Maybe warcry could be looked at again?
Actually the main thing I don't like is having a hard limit on how
long the skills last, anyway to make it so the skills still have
a chance to last longer? Like if you get a dazing headbutt it lasts
1.5 rounds and then maybe the more damage you do after that the more
likely it is to wake target up?
Also same time as skill change was the fix to Ac, no? I'd be
interested in how this affected damage done to mobs. You don't see
most ppl damcaping on hard mobs that much. Then again maybe I'm out
of touch, but when the damcap was doubled or whatever I didn't
notice me killing mobs in half the time.
Yawn, -ramble-
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