ok, well, message 42 got pretty buggy ever since append 5, which even
chimera can't seem to erase, he :-). so here's the continuation..
Wuss writes:
oh come on wuss, itd just be like carrying one more item.
now if you said the -opposite- of that, itd make sense, he :-p.
in -where- exactly :-p?
first, my ideas unrealistic. now you dont care for my more realistic
idea.. whatever :-p. in any case, i think its a real important part of
realism- if one were to make a movie of a mud, youd have to
have all these items floating around a person in a strange
gravitational trajectory called inventory :-p.
ok, how does it make sense?
i dont want it to be an extra chore- i was just thinking that the
mud could automatically drop a boat when you start fighting and
pick it up again when you stop (even if its fleeing).
very inpractical for battles- the automatic unsheating/sheathing
would be the ticket.
or when you take your weapon out just for show..
you dont draw your weapon in mid combat :-p.
ok, this is one point im not sure on- i dont know whether adding
more would help, but it seemed like a good idea anyways, he :-).
anyways, personally i think the imms and the people here (like
you :-) )are the best ive seen on -any- mud. and ive been to
quite a few.
not if we had different sizes of some eq.
From: Wuss
Thursday, April 15, 07:48PM
Before I continue responding to Jean, I'd like to ask Jean to
at least try to level to 50 before posting any further. A lot of
the system's nuances can not be understood until you live it through,
and it's only preposterous to people like me when players start
posting without giving at least a once-over at the system. I know,
I do that a lot with changes involving pk, but, uhm, yeah, I'm special
and everything, and at least I can be more specific :p
1. It won't be just like carrying one more item, currently bags and
packs are useful because they hide their contents until explored.
It's unrealistic all the same, because nobody can see the contents
of a bag unless they open it, or look in it -- unless you propse we
start using vinyl and transparent plastics, glass...
2. In where..? does that matter? Why not start harping on how unrealistic
it is to move with "mv," have "hp", have "ma", being able to cast spells,
having to learn "kick" to kick... some things we suspend reality on, and
that's simply one of them.
And it makes sense because we chose to live in this make-belief world
in the first place. Some conventions come with the world itself, and
if you enforce one aspect of reality too far, then it only makes the rest
so much more unreal.
3. Dropping a boat while fighting would terminate all sea-based warfare,
which would be rather silly. Oh heck, why don't we say how unreal it is
to fight on water with bashes and flying kicks while carrying a boat.
4. automatic unsheathing and sheathing would mean, one more unecessary
cosmetic change that has no bearing on the game itself. You can ALWAYS
emote.
5. You don't draw your weapon in mid combat? so if you are ambushed, you
fight with your bare fists, just cuz you don't draw weapons mid combat?
Aw, come on, of COURSE you draw weapons mid-combat. Anytime you have your
weapon wielded, in real life, is that you are in a combat situation --
if you are doing it for show, you should learn the practice in most
countries that say "never sheath a sword without bloodying it first."
6. Personally, we need more people who want to learn the system
through and contributing to testing what we have before we get
people who start suggesting not many others find relevant ;) Seriously
tho, there IS a reason why you can't immort til you reach lvl 45.
7. Chicken and an Egg. Different size of eq would mean you need
growth of character size, and growth of character size would only be
necessary when you have different size of eq. And again, if you were
at least half aware of the balancing nightmare involved in introducing
an equipment that is "attractive" to use, (mostly weapons) adding
more variables would certainly not help. Not to mention, we HAVE differen
sizes of eq, which effect what other equipment you can have at the
same time, somewhat depending on your strength and some other stat.
When you can reflect your constitution, strength, and dexterity to
conjure up a generic 'image' of a char with such qualities, who
needs external 'restrictions' and features that cannot be covered
by the description system and would only add to the confusion?
Wuss
From: Jean
Thursday, April 15, 10:59PM
Wuss writes:
But i -do- give the system the once over. The twice over, thrice
over. How? By talking to people whove played this system
plenty :-p. Oh sure, I could bore myself and level to 50, but why
bother when there are intelligent people like you around to
discuss things with, he :-)?
well, i listened to you guys talk for 3 hours about all that, he he he
:-). that whole arena is one that i dont know much about, so its
quite possible that i wont debate any points you wish to make
on the issue :-p.
<1. It won't be just like carrying one more item, currently bags and
packs are useful because they hide their contents until explored.>
did i say itd be exactly like a bag :-p? its a new kind of
container, thats all- one worn on the body :-).
its a body holster- as in things would be sticking out of the suit,
so itd be pretty easy to see things. Besides, like you said,
inventory isnt necessarily all visible, you feel whats there, he
he he :-). But now itll finally be -contained- in something, he :-).
<2. In where..? does that matter? Why not start harping on how
unrealistic it is to move with "mv,">
because its pretty realistic.
thats realistic enough and i cant think of an easy way of
changing that anyways :-p.
Magic is taken to be unrealistic from the start- but its unrealism
accepted from the start- in fantasy movies, books, wherever.
Having an inventory gravitational field is not :-p.
well, with kick, everyone should be able to kick, but with people
who dont have the kick skill, it should come out as your kick
was so lame, you lost balance and fell! or something, lol :-).
on one point, id agree with this- trying to make magic real. just
cant be done, he :-).
<3. Dropping a boat while fighting would terminate all sea-based
warfare, which would be rather silly. Oh heck, why don't we say
how unreal it is to fight on water with bashes and flying kicks
while carrying a boat.>
forget about bashes and such- were not supposed to be
carrying a boat, were supposed to be -in- it while at sea, lol :-).
But the boat thing is being worked on, Eas told me.. i forget how,
but I have faith in Ea :-).
<4. automatic unsheathing and sheathing would mean, one more
unecessary cosmetic change that has no bearing on the game
itself.>
not if we had some cool sheaths that gave an extra dam point or
2 if a weapon was in its sheath for a few ticks.
<5. You don't draw your weapon in mid combat? so if you are
ambushed, you fight with your bare fists, just cuz you don't draw
weapons mid combat? Aw, come on, of COURSE you draw
weapons mid-combat. Anytime you have your weapon wielded,
in real life, is that you are in a combat situation -->
shya right :-p. im sure many young medieval knights and such
would brandish their sword in show now and again :-). And even
if they didnt, were not in the medieval ages here exactly- i mean,
medieval knights didnt exactly go killing anything that moved,
chuckle :-p.
<6. Personally, we need more people who want to learn the
system through and contributing to testing what we have before
we get people who start suggesting not many others find
relevant ;)>
lol :-). Yeah well, if I were a coder, Id be -dying- for someone to
give me ideas on what to do or come up with ideas on how to
make my players happy (as im sure the coders on here do)-
cause coding for myself just wouldnt cut it :-p.
And that reason is :-)?
<7. Chicken and an Egg. Different size of eq would mean you
need growth of character size>
Actually, not really- you could have a fixed character size and still
have different sizes of eq.
weapons wouldnt be affected- strength determines that. And for
your information, Im pretty aware of the balancing act that has to
be done. As you may also know, i -love- equipment, he he :-).
Ive probably spent tons more time thinking about eq on this mud
then xping, thats for sure :-p. And if we introduced that extra 9k
rent ceiling that ive been hankering for for everyone, then tha
could balance things out nicely and maybe people could spend
more time figuring out what eq theyd like and less time on things
like killing mobs and players- and hey, the harder it is to get an eq
setup, the more people will think of pking, because if youve got a
nice eq setup, do you really want to lose it? In real life, we
-really- dont like losing our possessions, which is why no one
would consider a loot enabled system in real life, he :-p.
by cutting down on one restriction (eq rent limits), it could nicely
balance out another (different eq sizes) while being more realistic
on both counts. Furthermore, for some really high level equipment,
it could have a magically changes size to fit the user flag, so
that it wouldnt be affected by sizes.
From: Wuss
Friday, April 16, 03:26AM
Simply because some things are learned better yourself and cannot
be tought in text. I've yet to see a manual teaching you how
to ride a bike, or people that think they can learn how to ski
or board reading and discussing it.
From: Celeste
Friday, April 16, 12:11PM
I agree with Wuss. Level to 50. Give it a once over. And do it alone,
meaning without someone dragging you and giving you eq xp and money at
every step or close to it.
Then you'll -learn- the system in a way that simply isn't possible if
someone drags you all through your very first character.
And hopefully half the replies that have been given to you, which
I know seem unreasonable right now, will make sense.
You'll also get the added advantage of -knowing- your character and
his/her capabilities. And that makes a huge difference. Not to mention
from there on it's easier to estimate the capabilities of other
character types, and thus in general know the
system better - hence leading to more constructive comments.
When powerlevelling was much easier than it is now, there were
quite a few utterly ignorant level 50s wandering around.
Personally I can't see the pleasure in playing a character I haven't built
for myself, whose capabilities I've never bothered to learn and can in
no wise even estimate. What's more, to play such a character , and
then proceed to comment on others, well...it doesn't lend much to anyone
in terms of credibility.
I guess what I'm trying to say is - learn this place on its own terms.
Stop trying to change it into something more familiar to you. If what's
more familiar is what you really want, then go back to it. If not, stay
and try a different way of doing things, try it for a while before
wanting a massive overhaul of the way things are here. Who knows, you
might actually like, or at least see the reasons for it after having given
it a real try, rather than saying oh hey when I was in this other country
they did things this way, and not the way you do them, and even though I'v
been here as a tourist for a little while, I think you should make major
changes to things I don't even know the reasons for.
Rambly today. =) Sowwy!
Ces!
From: Yi
Friday, April 16, 12:17PM
Hmmm, you seemed confused as to why you can only be eligable to immort
after level 45, and to be honest, you're pretty much demonstrating
the reason. You have some interesting ideas, but honestly, none of them
are going to fly. You're asking for changes not based upon things
you've seen in Legend, but rather things you've seen in other mud's
that you haven't seen in Legend. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
For instance, your argument about increasing rent limits simply
won't work. As it is, experienced players can make some seriously
damn powerful characters. With increased rent limits, we'd be
superheroes. Maybe that's what you want, but it's not the way I see
Legend going. Simply put, to immort, you need to have a good grasp
on what Legend is like-the areas, the system, all that stuff.
And I'm afraid you just don't have that yet.
Yi.
From: Jean
Friday, April 16, 02:11PM
Wuss writes:
Oh come on Wuss, killing on heres not like a nintendo game,
never mind the fact that I dont like nintendo games because of
the fact that theres minimal player interaction, if any at all. On
here, you type kill on an appropriate and if your hps arent
down and your eq is ok the odds are you -wont- die (but you
can always flee if your hps get a little low, just in case). Its -not-
like riding a bike, where it can be quite difficult to master the skill.
Im sure that once you get past level 10, say, it could become a
little more complicated, but I doubt it could be -that- much more
complicated. Ive been on muds before and gotten to level 15
mage/14 ranger- i didnt see much of a difference, except then id
do things like kick and disarm. So basically I think that, yes, you
-can- tell me through text the relevant stuff. Recently, however, I
see youve stopped replying to my too low newbie rent
message. Perhaps you think that only xping could teach me. Or
perhaps youre not as sure as you think you are that youre right-
in essence, perhaps youre afraid to delve into the whole thing
any further.
From: Jean
Friday, April 16, 02:12PM
Celeste writes:
I guess what I'm trying to say is - learn this place on its own
terms. Stop trying to change it into something more familiar to
you.>
Why not?
I liked some aspects of some other muds I was on. Others I did
not. On there, i wasnt given a chance to get what i wanted- i
was banned. Here im not, so im still trying to get what i want :-p.
However, I dont do this solely for myself- Im not the only newbie
who wants better eq.. and atleast one high up char, slayer,
wants to be able to have more eq at a time.
I have. Xping here is pretty much the same as anywhere- its dull
:-p.
From: Siachet
Friday, April 16, 02:26PM
Jean, I don't know what type of character you are playing or how
much help you have had so far with finding the right equipment, learning
fight skills and so on.
But this game is VERY different from most muds in many ways and has a
great deal of depth to it. This includes a detailed (and ever-changing)
combat system. Killing mobs at higher levels is VERY different from lower
levels. This is especially true for mage characters, who may not even
learn their words and start getting fight skills until level 28. But it
also applies to other character types. The skills you can learn change
with level and with your stats, and the correct and strategic application
of these skills becomes much more important at higher levels.
I have played her for well over 3 years, and literally thousands of hours
( I shudder to think how long) and I am still making new characters and
trying out new things I have never tried before. I can honestly say that
I have never been bored here and I could probably play here for another
10 years and never be bored (I'm not saying everyone is like that though :
As far as turning the mud into something more familiar; different muds are
based on different goals and intended to appeal to different types of
people. This mud actually has the potential to cater to a wide range of
people with different goals; role-players, adventurers, explorers,
back'n'slashers, socializers.....many other muds out there tend to
attract a narrower range of people because they do not have the depth.
I've noticed that many new players experienced on other muds seem to
regard the entire process of building a character as a kind of nuisance
to be got out of the way as fast as possible. They turn up expecting to
get help levelling, be given lists of information and quest solutions,
and treat every challenge as though it was put there to annoy them.
I don't really know where that attitude comes from, never having been
able to find another mud I could stand playing on for any length of time,
but to me the process of exploring, learning the fight system, finding
ways to get xp, solving quests, searching for you own equipment etc
are the main purposes of being here as far as the gaming aspect of the
mud goes. As for socializing, role-playing etc, well taking time to
get xp does not prevent you doing these things as there is no need to
level up your character to do these things. I have a character over 2 year
old still at level 18; what is the great hurry to level?
Mind you, I'm not saying that the xp scale doesn't need tweaking or
anything :P Just that hardly having been here any time and already
finding things tedious, suggests that you came here with preconceived
ideas about what is and is not important. Maybe if you do try things out
here you will find the problems are with the other muds and the expectatio
they created.
Sia
From: Yi
Friday, April 16, 03:43PM
At this point, Jean, I'd say that you're really not making suggestions
anymore, you're trying to convince everyone that you're right and
everyone else is wrong. Unless you're willing to admit that people
who have been here for, in some cases, years longer than you might
possibly know a bit more about Legend than you do, continuing these
lines of discussion is futile. Not to be rude, but seriously, learn
the mud before you keep posting, because it's obvious that you
really don't.
From: Jean
Friday, April 16, 05:43PM
Siachet writes:
I agree on the depth.. but things like xp dont seem that different
on here then anywhere else. Quests are ok (especially if you
know how to do them, and i think im on the verge of that :-p), but
ive heard they cant get you to 50.
well, there you go- not everyone is like that, he :-). I know for a
fact that some high up players like craven and ruby get pretty
bored getting xp, so youre not all right.
Nods.
socializing would be where i come in.. but something more then
socializing too.. like to become an administrator of a mud one day.
nods.
Im not quite like that- I never expected to get much help (maybe
a little starting out info) but i got lots. In levelilng, xping, questing
and getting nice eq. Only then I found that I couldnt keep this nice
eq. So thats where this all started :-p.
Cant be an administrator til you get to 45, for one..
Sure, though i have already done a little xping on here. That
doesnt mean my ideas are mistaken.
id like to think of it more as the features of other muds. One
feature of those muds that i liked was the no rent deal. One
feature I -didnt- like was the overly authoritarian admins they
had on them; it was this feature that got me banned, he :-p. As
far as i know, this is the best mud available, which is why im on
it.
From: Jean
Friday, April 16, 05:44PM
Yi writes:
Ive already admitted that.
I dont agree with that.
Your opinion, not mine.
From: Brede
Saturday, April 17, 11:12AM
You've been here less than well, we'll say 2 months, a nd you allready
plan on being an admin. Not only that you plan to change the system
and indeed the whole mud in fairly radical ways. All this, without ever
completeing playing 1 character? I've been on other muds, yes, some are
looking for immortals, and will take them with no game experience. Legend
is most definately not a place such as that. If you have any doubt
about that, go to http://mud.aus.sig.net/help.indexes.html and
read just what a proposal entales. Talk to a builder about their proposal
and talk to a department head. I get the feeling that you are looking for
a place where you can imm with minimal effort. I've showed friends of
mine that have played on other muds, the immort proposal I submitted as
well as the guidelines, and their eyes almost popped out of their heads.
This is not you run of the mill, churn it off in an hour proposal. And
now I am sure you are going to go off saying that its too hard to imm
here... Well check out your dictionary and read about standards. Legend
has high standards, and I think that the whole point of making it so
difficult (the proposal, and the level 45 minimum) was to keep people
from immorting in passing, without commitment and then dissapearing fairly
soon afterwards.
Ramble, ramble, ramble.
Brede
From: Jean
Sunday, April 18, 12:56AM
Brede writes:
more like 2 weeks, he :-).
I dont see anything wrong with planning on applying to be an
admin one day..
Yeah, guess im guilty of being pretty ambitious, chuckle :-p.
you mean levelling up to 50? Well, I know that the rule at present
is that you cant apply to be an admin until youre level 45. Im
not sure I agree with that rule, but at present, I dont care to
debate it. Besides, this ooc board is keeping me pretty busy as it
is :-).
No point, since im nowhere near level 45 :-p.
hardly.
he :-).
I may one day decide to say that levelling to 45 is too tedious,
but at present, I have no great need to be an immortal in the near
future :-p.
