Posted by Mo on 04/12
If you are not tumbling a lot, chances are that it's yer wary/agg
that's doing the thing in addition to the setting of your opponent.
I have no qualms about having 100 dex chars tumble -- what annoys me
are chars like mine that can tumble (or at least have a chance to)
with a mere minimum req -- at an efficiency as good as anyone else
thanks to the amount of luck involved.
What I suggest is a sum of dex and the other stat in order to tumble
a said attack from that stat. 130 combined dex and str if you want to
tumble bashes, 130 combined dex and con if you want to tumble headbutts,
and 100 dex in order to tumble chokes.
The way I see it, too many classtypes get the benefit of tumble with
low dex. The said numbers should be nowhere near troublesome to reach
for fighters, and they shouldn't even be tough for dex mages -- just
a tad bit harder on half mages, maybe -- so maybe the numbers could
be upped to 150 or so... also minimum of 120 or so dex/min to
tumble stuns -- etc etc etc.
The fact of the matter is that luck plays a huge enough roll without
tumble messing it up. Moreover, mages tend to have healing
capacity that allows them to stretch their luck a bit more than
pure fighters -- in the end, another reason why healing substantially
increases one's likeliness to win combat (besides the simple outlasting).
In addition to all this, maybe it's worth thinking about disallowing
self-healing during the pk-timer. I would think it would seriously
shift the balance to fighters more (and render certain cause spells
useless for pk) and would be an interesting twist.
mo!
From: Davien
Wednesday, March 17, 02:48AM
Or you could rearrange things so you can heal yourself if you need
to win that much. All hometowns have healing options, so I am sure
you made the choice to forgo healing when you chose your stats. No
one is forcing you to keep the ones you have.
Maybe us mages should require that all fighters use a blade of
grass so that they don't hit as so hard. Those big heavy weapons must
be tiring after all. The people that chose to be able to heal
themselves gave up those same stats that you employed to wield the
big weapon, or have so many HP, or so good a hitroll.
Variety is the spice of life, and in this case, every stat combo
has a weakness. You have the ability to exploit it or you don't.
Personally I would be really sad if you won every single fight and
I am sure every one else would be as well. As things stand, you have
the chance to beat even the person who has the ability to exploit
your weakness, simply because of luck. Or do you want to remove the
random factor and be beaten EVERY time by the person who can exploit
you?
Davien Holyoake
From: Ton
Wednesday, March 17, 12:38PM
Well, Mo is actually speaking against his current character type, so
don't take him for being biased about it. I agree that half mages
rule. No matter what you are up against, you have an attack that will
be sucessful. The problem is that attack would be as sucessful as
someone elses that ONLY has that attack. (for example: a 100str 60dex
60 con 60 mind 35 spr 30 perc character can bash as well as a
100 str 100 con 80 dex character can) The problem is that the first
character has a totally different method of combat to fall back on if
bash doesn't work for him, and bash works as well for him as it
does for the other person without anything to fall back on. (except
for the klein bonus, which is hard to judge how sucessful it actually
is)
Ton - of Brick.
From: Craven
Wednesday, March 17, 05:03PM
I agree alot about the tumble thing. The healing thing is a bit
farfetched. I'm a sniper, and I don't heal -yet-, but my point is
that I don't think the healing problem comes from mages so much as it
comes from people like mo who poultice. When for a few k rent they can
heal upwards of 700 or 800 hp, PLUS they still hit hard, have the con
for headbutts ect...thats when it starts getting insane. I'd
personally like to see augment SERIOUSLY reviewed, because atm, it is
such an unbalancing feature that I personally wouldn't even consider
fighting a poulticer :) Just my two cents though.
From: Fright
Wednesday, March 17, 08:51PM
Or a headbutter, or a basher, or an immolater, or a choker?
Point is, every type has its advantages. I agree that poultice is a bit
on the ugly side, but you can always do what I do and steal the DERT
bag just before you attack them. Problem solved.
Fright
From: Lethargio
Wednesday, March 17, 09:51PM
Every type has its advantages, but some more than others. The main of
er...the main goal of balacing pkill is trying to make every char
type balance out, because if there is a definite advantage of one char
there really isn't any point of making a different type other than
that one if you care about competetiveness. Sure, stealing DERT bags
would work; but what about those who can't steal? Don't expect everyone
else on the mud to be able to do the same things as you can...
From: Mo
Wednesday, March 17, 10:30PM
A curse dert bag would foil that really simply -- not to mention
the luck involved in stealing something before things start getting
really ugly.
Healing is a bit overpowered (not too much so, since once you concentrate
on healing you lose out on a lot of options, esp in my case) because
of spamming without much penalty or delay. When, if ever, are we gonna
see gradual stat change? With the slashing of the seoni earrings, it
isn't that hard for anyone to pack quite a bit of spam once they sacrifice
some hp gear, some damroll gear... and for mages who already need spam
to meditate/root, augment is only 1k rent away at most.
(even less so, since all i do is get rid of -spi gear that i don't take
off for meditate due to hp loss).
I'm sure this is all under consideration and 'solved' in skill trees thank
to skill usage and whatnot, but then why tag on more projects when skill
trees isn't even done? Housing's all nice and good, new areas are all nic
and whatnot, but seriously. If every imbalance is going to be answered
with "that's already done in skilltrees" at least make that happen.
Mo!
From: Violence
Thursday, March 18, 01:41AM
That's the problem wiht all thses 'imbalance' problems atm isn't it?
we can fix them now and delay skill trees, na dthen have to do
it all over once skill tress come in, or live with what we have now and
let the balance be worked out once skill trees is in. I know I for one
would much rather see Skill Trees sooner than later than worrying about
this weeks pkillers conplaint about balance. Heck I know there is more
than a few things I think are unblanced in pkill......
Hmm love all those typos......
Violence
From: Malia
Thursday, March 18, 04:12PM
There's a few ways to keep a druid from healing. -shrug- If they
can't see, and can't flee, they can't heal.
As far as imbalances go, you see, there are 'builders' and there
are 'coders'. Coders code, builders build. Asking the builders
to stop building so that the coders can code is kinda what
you're saying Mo, and I'm pretty sure that most builders
don't code. =)
They've said that they're putting skills trees as their
main project over the next year, let them do that. You can't
have both. "fix this" "fix that", but "get trees in".
Make up your mind people. =P
Malia, all spiffy, all the time.
From: Ruby
Thursday, March 18, 04:24PM
We all know skill tree's are never going to happen.
I started around 3 years ago and I remember as a newbie people
talking about tree's saying that they were going to go in soon.
Just this last November or Oct Rufus said something to the affect that Ski
skill tree's proly would go in around January. Well folks
it is now mid march. Most of us that have been around for along
time think that skill tree's will NEVER go in.
Ruby
They just keep saying wait wait wait. Well I'm sick of wait'n
From: Ton
Thursday, March 18, 07:31PM
Can always do what I do and just laugh at the mention of skill
trees. I love the idea, but its been 'almost here' since I've been here
and a lot longer than that too. I don't know if waiting for a year
for skill trees is worth not fixing a problem in the short term, I
guess that depends how big the problem is.
Ton of Bricks
From: Conspiracy
Thursday, March 18, 10:16PM
could you be any less greatful Mo? I know I'm not much of one to
but give me a break, you talk like you want skill trees in
tomorrow...-newsflash- as long as people whine and complain
about balance, and try to make coders feel like what your
whining about is top priority, trees will never happen. I agree
with whoever said (in one of the many threads) that we just live
with it until trees go in.
your talking about one skill, a skill that affects people of higher
levels obviously, and only in pkill. I don't see that as being top
priority for the mud. what you really should have said is,
'hey imms, is there anyway that we can make my chars win
100% of their pk battles?' .. and that just isn't going to
happen. you win enough as is anyway, so if it's luck that beats you
learn to live with it, and stop whining like a five year old
not wanting to take a bath.
your complaint is that at a minimal amount of dex, too many people
tumble your fight skills. so lets break this down Barny style (TM)...
Tumble is a fight skill, and like all other fight skills it compares
stats versus stats for a percentage of a chance of working. now,
with that being said... lets look at your char. I'm betting that
your dex is fairly low, given that your a str half mage. (I think)
lets say, for example you have 30 dex, that seems fair enough
for that char type, and I'm prolly being generous.
your facing a char with at least double that (the min for tumble)
I personally think that they SHOULD in fact tumble quite alot.
what your asking for is that your char type be able to be better
than anyone elses. well, guess what.. it isn't going to happen.
every char type has a flaw, or a weakness, so to speak, and it sounds
to me like your just getting pissy because someone found your weakness.
Conspiracy! (I hate stupid people)
From: Ma
Friday, March 19, 04:42AM
Tumble's too powerful no matter how you calculate how often
it works. It needs degrees of success, somehow!
From: Raskolnikov
Friday, March 19, 02:09PM
Mo wants the mud to be a math game whre luck isn't involved.
He wants to know if he can bash you and it won't fail for sure. PK isn't
luck, just small parts of it are. On the whole,
however, pk isn't about luck at all. Notice how the same
people win time and again even though 'tumble cheats'
or 'stun is too powerful' or 'bash is unbalancing'.
I actually agree with conspiracy that these arguments
are only geared towards pk balance and not total
mud balance. I say take a look at the mud and do
the best you can instead of saying no fair when
something doesn't go your way in a pk fight.
From: Mo
Friday, March 19, 02:11PM
Don't go hating yourself now, conspiracy, and it's not just others
tumbling my skills, but me tumbling others' skills as well.
And before you start making foolish assumptions about my stats,
let me just tell you that i have enough dex to tumble, enough mind
to wfw, enough str to get all my attacks, and enough con to headbutt
fairly well -- not to mention having all the 2nd cause spells AND
+10 hitroll (oh, another 5 from bless), +21damroll ... and yes,
augment.
If you actually knew how to read, i'm getting pissy about the fact
that somebody can actually build a char that takes advantage of
heaps and heaps of stuff on this system without getting too penalized.
Thank god imms changed WFW to having at least a 60mind min -- else
i'd have had as much con as i have str.
The reason i'm complaining is because there are many chartypes out there
who can take advantage of almost everything a fighter can, IN ADDITION to
having spells. Dex needs its skills to be upped in req so ppl can't
simply take a moderate amount of it and get everything -- juggle, tumble,
dodge and whatnot. Up tumble to 80, juggle to 90, dodge to 60.. it's
ridiculous really to see 100min/con mages with tumble and all 2nd circle
spells. Gee, add augment to that kind of a mage, and voila! You have
a char that can stun just about anyone (one of the most powerful skills
in the game, headbutt/stun) besides which they can harm and wither for
50ish points and heal like no tomorrow.
Mo!
From: Mo
Friday, March 19, 02:21PM
On rask's post -- notice how one char can have all of the three things
he mentioned being 'unbalancing?' Tumble, stun, bash.
From: Raskolnikov
Friday, March 19, 02:25PM
The point of my post is that yes there are many irish people
in pk cause of augment, and they are getting their skills tumbled, but whe
n I have fought london/klein people you tumble less.
Mo- you should take advantage of everything you can. You
still can't win every fight and neither can I. YOu have weaknesses
that are easliy exploited, so do I do does every kind of char.
Like the imms said, snipers aren't supposed to be a type of
fighter and therefore IMHO they suck cause they can be
beat on by nearly every type of character.
I see the mud as being more balanced than EVER! Mo, you
prove it by being a str mage. You'd have gotten worked a
year ago doing that. There are con fighters, dex mages, con
mages, str fighters all who are doing just fine in pk. JUst
let's say your plan is imp'd. Noone has tumble now or no mages
except dex mages. So now everyone is getting bashed to death
by straight fighters. I fail to see how that makes anything
more balanced since there are a lot of straight fighters who
do fine I think. And I personally think the mud is going to suck
when the no spam for skills crap goes in. Obviously a lot of my
alts spam for healing skills and I spam for meditate because
healing blows! So that's taken away and you have people just sitting
on their butts healing all day.
Yay.
_Rask
From: Violence
Friday, March 19, 04:54PM
Guess what it all boils down to is most we all desipe tumble when
it works for our opponents and love it when it works for us.
I both like and dislike the skill, sure it can be of great use when it
works, buts its useless if it doesn't, THe biggest problem I,
and from the sounds of it many other have is it simply
helps reduce the amount of skill needed to sucessfully pkill and
replace it with a large does of luck. My solution to the tumble
problem would to be add the fact that you'd need an equal
perception to the dex you currently need to use the skill, oh sure
snipers could still tumble and luck would play a large part but for
the most part it is a pretty wide spread belief you need all the help
you can get to play a good sniper, its not impossible to be really
good just hard. Making tumble a 60 dex/perc skill would both
make a lot more sense and remove alot of the ' I lost cause he got
lucky' annoyance from the current enviroment.
Ah well I've said enough for now.
Violence
From: Brede
Friday, March 19, 10:04PM
Either raise the perc req, or make the deq req for tumble 80 or
so, I agree with mo that 60 dex gets you far too many dex skills,
and those skills are fairly independant of stats too.
Brede
From: Raskolnikov
Friday, March 19, 11:32PM
There is actually a lot of sacrifices given to get
60 dex if you are a mage.
From: Myrella
Saturday, March 20, 12:07AM
Somehow I seriusoly doubt that Rask, why is it that pretty much
every pkiller will do everything in their power to make sure they
can tumble? Mainly because the benifit of the skill far outwieghs
the rather small requirement to get it. NOt to mention the extra hit roll
that is more than welcome along with that required Dex.
Myrella
the non-tumbling Dex Mage
From: Adolfus
Sunday, March 21, 03:30AM
agree rask
also
Ok sure everyone needs tumble to be effective, in pk anyway. Sure you coul
get by without it in mobkill, but not as well. So everyone must have
a min of 60 dex or pay the consequences. To say that since everyone has it
one doesn't give up anything to get it is flawed logic.
Also in my opinion you can't give it a 60 perc req either, not that
it would help snipers too much, but for the reason rask gives that str
fighters would bash everyone too much. Actually theres nothing wrong
with tumble in my opinion, and actually its very good as is, and is
responsible for a lot of the karma feel in the system. Same as luch
um luck, you say? Sorry I wouldn't want to play a game where someone
with 100 str bashed me 99 percent of the time because I had 30 str,
just like rask said, no to mathmud.
Geez, everyones got the skill right, you say, so theres not much room
to complain about imbalance. Only if one type was taking advantage of
it to win all the time or something. You raise the reqs on it then
everyone that didn't get the req, or couldn't get the req would most
likely suck. Then we would really hear the complaints.
As for any imbalance I think the test should be that you point out
someone who uses the socalled imbalance to their advantage. If you
can show some char that can kill without fail, then you got an
imbalance.
Oh and the bashed 99 percent of the time, shoulda read with no chance
for it to fail. Maybe if each stat gave a chance to save against
skills you could remove tumble but whats the point, we don't want
nofail skills do we? Chance to save based on skills could be like,
you try to bash mrdex but he steps out of the way, or you try to
bash mrcon but hes like a stone wall and you fall to the ground
stunned, etc etc.
You know Mo I'd say that the arguments against you that you just want
to win 100 percent of the time were just lame, but um I at least see
it as if there was no tumble, bash would be near nofail, which would
make str chars near indefeatable. Maybe you could respond to this
specifically instead of just skipping over this.
Surely you see how, taking a skill everyone uses and making it a skill
not everyone could get, would be a bad(tM) thing?
As for chars having access to too many different skillsets, id say
skilltrees will help with this, but also, you must relize that to fix
this the reqs would have to be raised on the things only some ppl use
instead of things everyone uses. Ie if someone has tumble dodge hunt
kick bash headbutt augment and you felt this was too much, then the
fringe skills would need to be made harder to get not the core skills
like kick bash headbutt not hunt dodge or tumble.
Maybe you say tumble should be dex only? Well only if you want to ruin
the mud as it is now, tumble is how it is as a relic from when you had
to be dex to compete. Raise the tumble req to 80 dex and your just
going back in the direction of a dex only mud. Sure str/dex chars would
rock the most, cuz straight dex kinda sucks these days, hrm see a pattern?
Agree Rask, ppl win cuz of skill not luck. Partially skill in choosing
char types, probably 50/50 or so. Do you find yourself saying Oh if he
hadn't tumbled I would have killed him? I don't I deal with it. Now if
it was a dex char that had a tumble skill with 100 dex req then yah I
might complain.
From: Mo
Sunday, March 21, 03:17PM
It's funny, cuz, 60 dex is way too low a req for a skill that does
so much. Honestly, when you can make 100min/con with 60dex, things are goi
too far, imho.
From: Adolfus
Monday, March 22, 12:07AM
Maybe that is so, maybe not. I guess the test would be, do you think
100 mind/con 60 dex chars are overpowered? Are there any chars like
this that are doing inordinately well? I haven't heard of any. Though
con/mind is what I figured would be best before the fight changes,
it hasn't really turned out that way has it?
From: Zeppelin
Wednesday, March 24, 12:26PM
Hmmm - I GOT IT! And, it'll take like 5 mins to code:
change the tumble min dex req. to 70 dex. Should be JUST enough
to ward of the kind of thing that Mo is talking about, without
making it too high.
-flip-
Zep
From: Nothing
Monday, April 12, 08:45AM
While I don't agree with taking out eq damage for spells completely,
I do agree that the fire spells damage too much eq. It'd be nice
if items that shouldn't be damaged by fire (metal things, or
whatever) shouldn't be affected by fire, but still be damaged
in normal fight rounds. I'm just like the most of you in that I'd
run from a person who just tries to trash my eq rather than stay
and fight.
-Nothing
From: Nothing
Monday, April 12, 08:50AM
Bleh, missed the 3 on 38
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