Posted by Mo on 02/01
I've had it with the idiocy of having worse for wears the only
'decent' if not incredibly overpowering combat related skill.
It's pretty silly when i get a wfw on another fighter -- gee whiz,
i get to pound that poor guy for 4 rounds with damcaps (that's 356
pts for the mathematically noninclined) and if i get hit by a
wfw, i get hit by just as much altho in my case gear tends to
get burnt.
I don't see any rhyme or reason behind making staggers, para
warcs, para bs's, carotids last roughly 1-2 (a little longer on
the bs, but even that's roughly 3) while making a wfw almost
guaranteed to last at least two and a half, up to 6 (i've had
two immolates while wfw'd, that'd be 6 rounds).
If ANYTHING, wfw should skill lag the caster during the ENTIRE
duration of the stun, and if not, make it such that any attack
done to the target aside the normal should instantly wake it.
It's stupid to give mages half cost damspells to promote its
use, then giving them wfw to simply take advantage of a 1-2
combo... look at it now, i rarely see mages simply using damage
spells, only in conjunction with wfws.
Also, since there is a check for wfw on 3rd or 2nd circle
mage already, let's add a few more checks that makes wfw less
likely to other mages, more expensive if cast by a 3rd circle
mage (say, additional 35 mana PER ROUND the target spends stunned)
etc etc.
A lot of this i say since it's possible and feasible to have a
bastard 3rd circle mage with 100min/con and tumble, or 100min/dex
and 60 con, etc, etc. Maybe wfw bonus should only apply if the
caster is eligible for rudh, as well.
Mo! -- sick and tired of one casting of a spell ending a fight
From: Adolfus
Wednesday, January 27, 02:23AM
I agree that its stupid. I said it was stupid when it first
was changed. Quite strongly in fact, and just for the
reason you mention, not so much that it lasts a long
time as its an nobrainer to cast immoliate to go with it.
The max on wfw should be 3 rounds I think, and also I think
making all the other stun skills be 2 round max was
stupid, especially in conjunction with this wfw change.
Also why dumb it down and give a worse for wear message
at all, if your gonna give someone the bonus why announce
it. Gee you stun this person. Ok there down, it looks
like there gonna stay down, but you know what you shouldn't
really know, just when there gonna get up.
We need a chance to wake early based on highest fightstat.
Or just fix it comepletely and make wfw 3 round max
and remove the idiot notice.
From: North
Wednesday, January 27, 03:34AM
gee, if I could even hit half of what you're talking bout during
a stun I'd probably be happy. And if you try stunning an already
stunned person, you just lose mana.
I got just 2 fight skills, if you want mages about, don't make em
suck
North
From: Kurik
Wednesday, January 27, 09:12AM
I will be always mage, and when they will suck or no, I will be
mage. What I want to say? I'm not switching clothes when imms
are changing something about skills, spells or pkill system.
And with bash and elbow I can't make enough.
So I haven't a skill which I can stun you.
My last chance is stun spell.
Kurik, friend with death.
From: Bryn
Wednesday, January 27, 09:25AM
Stun has its drawbacks as well.It's the only stunning skill which
has a mana cost, and in addition to having a chance to fail and
a chance to be tumbled, its the only stunning skill which has a
chance of putting the would-be stunner out cold on the floor
while the stunnee gets to marvel at his good fortune and pound
away. Besides, surely you all remember the days when a good wfw
could last quite a bit more than four rounds. I think considering
its costs, stun isn't overpowered.
Bryn.
And yeah, I'm a mage, so this post is on the selfish side :P
From: Adolfus
Wednesday, January 27, 12:23PM
While stun can backlash and costs mana, I say the mana cost is
cheap for what you get out of it. If your fighting someone that
you should be trying to stun, ie lower mind, its fairly certain
that you will get your stun.
North its interesting that you mention skills, making stun the
way it is effectively takes these skills out of your hands.
Given that your opponent has lower mind than you, it would be
very unwise to try to do anything but go for wfw and immoliate
combo's.
Course there arent many with high mind that arent 3rd circle,
those that arent third circle with high mind you should be able
to do ok with just immoliate.
I agree that stun lasting so long isnt all that bad, its just
bad in conjunction with immoliate. Of course making wfw last
so long helps out the mages with high -str- a lot more than others.
From: Fright
Wednesday, January 27, 01:17PM
I am not sure if any changes were made, but when wfw initially was
upgraded I got a couple of 4 rounders. Since then (and I have raised
my mind as well) I have got 2 round wfw's only. As it is now, I
would rather sit thru 3 rounds of the stun and hit, and try to put another
chant guh lak vya ex in after than to put in an immolate and give the pers
on chance to bash or headbutt or choke me.
Fright
From: Mandarb
Wednesday, January 27, 02:12PM
I'll tell you what, when you LIVLIHOOD, i.e. anything you rely onto
survive here costs 35 mana a piece and if there not there, well, oops,
you still lost 35, lets see you handle it the way we do. I think stun
when lucky is very powerful. I also think when snipers para backstab
me 2 or 3 times a fight, which DOES happen, they are extremely lucky
also. Stuff happens, and like it or not, sometimes luck makes something
look extremely overpowered. I would be more then willing to do what
adolfus says, but only if every damn skill there is costs hp. If
you want to headbutt me, fine, but it will cost you 20 hp. Or how about
10 hp and 10 mana? That sounds even better. And how about all these
bastard poulticers mo? I personally have rudh without spamming for it,
do you have augment without spamming for it? I think augment should
be minimum 80 spirit to heal anything, and that heals only like 40
hp, with 100 doing what it does now. I'm sick of people bitching about
mages when personally, i'm lucky to win a god damn fight. I run
from almost every type of fighter there is because they have some
insane advantage over me, like ELBOW, BASH, HEADBUTT. Stop your bitchin
and look at the other side for a change. Maybe what you have isn't
so bad after all.
-Mandarb
From: Adolfus
Wednesday, January 27, 04:53PM
Well mandarb it was your complaining about 3rd circle mages being
underpowered which got the change in the first place.
Every skill can do a lot to win a fight, 2 para backstabs are
possible, but there is a tick limit on those. The only limit
to wfw is your opponents hp really. Every stun skill can have a
big effect, and thats the way it should be. If each stun was
just like all the other stuns in length then things would be
a lot more balanced.
I like making mages loose mana by fleeing, I never mind it when
I play a mage, but if Rufus wants to remove that then thats
his perogative. Making silly suggestions about making skills
cost hp is just that kinda silly. I guess next you will want
to be able to immoliate self to add hp to your char. If you
have high mind you should have plenty of mana to last a fight.
As an illustration of how this is unbalanced, not sure just how
relevant it is now, but, Beam and Irony used to duel.
Both dex mages with around 550 or so hp, Beam from tara and
Irony from Agrabah, we changed our stats around every once
in a while, but generally we had the same amount of perc
or very close. Irony could stun Beam but generally didn't
not sure if it was to conserve mana or what, rarely did he
backlash. Think Irony had around 70 or 80 mind to Beam's 60.
Since we were both dex our hits landed with weapons came
down to perc, you could notice a difference when you raised
it. Generally if you had 50 perc youd lad 5 of 9, 70 7 of 9,
etc.
So everything was extremely balanced, cept he was a real
fast typist, but what wasn't balanced was if he could get
Beam stunned any period of time at all he would flee and
come back and immoliate. That would cause such a deficit
when it occured it would end the fight, either with death
or making it time to run.
Considering stun doubles spell damage Fright Id think you
need to reevaluate your tactics. Before It would do 100hp
damage, and 200hp when stunned. Is it not like this
anymore, or am I remembering incorrectly?
Of course most mages probably won't be able to hit for
much damage, but of course they have other advantages, and
its mainly eq choice anyway. I'd say a third circle mage
with decent damroll and hitroll, should be able to really
mess some ppl up in this system if not hold their own.
And anyway Mandarb you can blind ppl, and thats no small
thing. Really wasn't it your bitching about you not
having any reason to play your char because 3rd circle
sucked so bad, that led to this whole discussion.
You if anyone I think has absolutely no right to ask for
no bitching.
From: Rufus
Wednesday, January 27, 05:24PM
Spells are not calculated as double damage against stunned targets.
They get a percentage bonus, but no where even approaching 50%
more, let alone double the original damage.
-Ruf
From: Zeppelin
Wednesday, January 27, 06:30PM
Hmmmm -- I am a mage -- but I am going to throw my 2 cents into
toning down wfw a SMALL amount.
First, I must agree with Fright that recently I have not had a
long (read: 5 or more) worse for wear in a long time.
So, that being said, heres my suggestion.
If headbutt, choke, shoot, warcry and backstab are
indeed capped at 3 rounds (Rufus, any truth to this?) then
worse for wears should get the same treatment. Well, regardless
I think the odds of a worse for wear (thanks Mo) should be
dependant on the DIFFERENCE in mind, instead of just the
castor's mind, ie with 90 mind you should have better odds
of getting a wfw on a 25 mind 100con/dex/str type than on
a char with say 60 mind. That just makes sense all around.
Secondly, if we do indeed cap the length of worse for wears
at 3 rounds (which is a good idea) can we PLEASE PLEASE
PLEASE get rid of the 'resurge' code -- thats right just
commment it all out. It is seriously not a good way to
balance spells (especially since its just on one spell
and blatently attempts to set back cast levels even tho
some players work extra hard to get works at low levels).
I really think that would balance stun: 3 round cap,
make the odds based on mind diff, and REMOVE the resurge.
On a side note, if you choose not to remove resurge,
please explain why I get more at high mind then low mind?
Bad luck? Hmmm, also explain why it has a 2 round
delay when actaully failing a stun has < one round and
takes the same mana?
Thanks,
Zep
From: Adolfus
Wednesday, January 27, 09:35PM
Didn't everything used to do double damage against stunned opponents?
Or was it only skills, or neither? Did these things get changed
at some point when fight system was changed?
All in all if wfw is limited to 3 rounds that sounds pretty fair,
specially if all stun skills have a CHANCE to go that long, not
that they would need to very often. The wfw change wouldn't bother
me near as much if stun skills had not been capped.
Would it really be the right way to fix things say, if dex fighters
were underpowered and con fighters overpowered to limit headbutt
to one round and raise limit on choke to 6 rounds? I'd think itd
be much better to just alter the chances slightly than to throw caps
on skills.
Good idea zep with more mind equal better chance for longer wfw.
From: Mo
Wednesday, January 27, 11:29PM
I don't think anything does double damage on stunned any more, a
change i think that came with the damcap change (or round about then)
And mandarb, -I- DEPEND on stuns against fighters, and 35 mana cost,
however much it may seem to you, is a LOT to me when it means nearly
60-80 pts of healing if i conserve it -- MUCH more than what your
35 mana may mean to you.
The fact of the matter is, I still find it worthwhile casting -- as
a matter of fact, i still find it a bargain, really -- a chance to wfw,
coming from a 2nd circle bare min mage, however slight -- can make
quite a huge difference in combat. Not to mention that it can knock out
a HUGE chunk of hps in conjunction with immolate (no matter what the
bonus is, it's not too hard to do 89 pts with immolate when you add
the already high dam to stunned bonus -- neglecting acs, sinks, etc).
It is stupid that we move to lesser stuns (a deliberate move, i think,
in order to make fights last longer and less dependent on luck) then
add something that simply knocks ppl out cold.
And ppl keep harping that stuns surge or fail -- every skill does.
Backlash? Well duh, it goes both ways, if you backlash on them, they
backlash on you, be smart, nobody gets hurt. That's some really basic
stuff there.
Mo!
From: North
Thursday, January 28, 11:41PM
Hmmm, stun isn't a fight skill. stun costs 5 pracs to learn. mages
aren't fighters. mages are mages. Half mages are half mages. simple
really. When mages complained that the 3 100s were just cleaning up,
what was the response? "get better X fight stat so that doesn't happen"
Well, maybe all the fighters should get more mind hmmm? And I'm really
sick of people saying the stun/immolate combo is too powerful so drop
stun. I don't even have immolate, and the next closest thing doesn't
work in certain areas. If I hit anyone, they'd probably laugh and
say it tickled, then rip me to shreds or something like that.
I'm not a fighter, I'm a mage. I get bashed/choked/kicked/elbowed/etc
and my mind doesn't protect me from that. Why should your con/str/dex
protect you from my stuns?
Alright. Flame Away....but please don't immolate -eyeroll-
North
From: Shiva
Friday, January 29, 07:44AM
I only have a little to say of wfw stuns, being a 50th level mage
with 100 mind, and getting maybe 2 wfw stuns outta 10 seems to me
pretty limited, especially considering that's even against animals.
Now, you are saying even this is too powerful? Come off it. I've had stun
since the lowest level i could get it at, somewhere around 6th I believe.
I worked hard to get it early, and sacrificed other skills, as someone ear
earlier mentioned, getting stun spells takes us mages a lot more practices
to learn than the fighter's stun skills. If you don't like it
tuff, like North said get a higher mind.
Shiva
From: Adolfus
Friday, January 29, 10:05AM
Im sure you mages would say or do anything to keep your precious
wfw as powerful as possible. I commend you on your rhetoric. It
did get an upgrade though so it could be overpowered. With all
these mages coming forward saying how they are big wusses maybe
the spell could have a wuss check and the wusses get a bonus.
Seriously I agree that 3rd circle mages are weaklings that can
hardly take care of themselves, thats why I say dont rip out
wfw completely, leave it 3 rounds, but not more than 3 rounds.
Heck maybe it was a bug that was causing it to go longer than
3, but 2nd circle mages certainly arent wimps, and even most
3rd circle mages have vast spells with which to play and take
advantage.
From: Mo
Friday, January 29, 09:31PM
Mmmm. No offense, shiva, but we're not discussing mobkill
wfw here, just the fact that unlike other para/stun skills
in pk, that wfw's aren't capped at the 1-2 rounds but can last
up to 5 and stuff.
I'm currently hard pressed to beat a char type that will have
100min/con, some 3rd circle spells and tumble. The said type
can easily pack a few damroll to do 'decent' damage on hits
alone, and their immolate kinda hurts. Not to mention they're
not really stunnable, sans para bs, but even that, in my experience
as a sniper, doesn't happen as often as a 40dex char jumping a
backstab.
Again, maybe wfw should check for rudh, have the chance depend on
mind diff with the target, and give it 3-4 round lag if the stun
wfw's, just like para bs's get extra lag (or, just cap it at wherever
it is that other skills are capped -- namely carotid).
Mo!
From: Zeppelin
Saturday, January 30, 12:03PM
Yeah, i can live with a 3 round cap if the resurge goes away
and, mmm maybe 4 rounds but that seems more than the other
stuns in pk to me. And I agree with Mo too that getting a wfw
should take into account the difference in mind of the two.
Yeah, that would be cool.
From: North
Monday, February 01, 03:18AM
Well, I was gonna write something sarcastic, but hey, I'm not
feeling particularly inspired tonight. I will reiterate that
magic is markedly different than skills, and perhaps the
cap on para/stun skills in pk, which Mo so relentlessly refers
to, shouldn't apply.
Also, just because one character type can't beat another is no
reason for downgrading the stronger character type into a much
weaker character type. Everyone has weaknesses.
Moreover, 100 mind/con, some 3rd circle spells and tumble is
most definately NOT a 3rd circle mage. They'd either be
missing some of the most powerful words, or have negative str/dex.
Stuns requiring the RUDH word in order to wfw is an interesting
idea, however if you can't keep people happy with a 60 mind base
requirement for wfw stun, what in the world makes you think they'd
go for an even higher requirement?
Maybe I'd be less of an advocate for stun if I had more useful
spells at my disposal, however, I seriously doubt I'm making people
quake in their boots with my glowing orb of light, or blocking those
silver serrated swords with my glowing armor of light. If you'd like
to propose wfw only for 3rd circle, I'll support you, but having a
2nd circle mage complain that he can't survive 3rd circle, higher mind
stuns, while also saying he can stun/damage the living daylights out of
lower mind people won't win my support.
Okay, I'm done. Oh, and Adolfus? Please submit my name for
the wuss check! I should get 10 round wfw stuns then!
North
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