Posted by Mariachi on 01/17
I had a couple thoughts:
1- do hitroll and damroll affect fight skills like kick and such?
seems like they should, but i don't really know if they do...
2- wouldn't it be nifty if skills could be augmented by eq? for
example, wearing steel-toe boots boosts the damage a kick does, or
wearing some kind of armbands makes a bash more deadly? Just a thought.
if someone could answer that #1 I'd appreciate it, and any thoughts on #2,
I especially can't wait for flames for my having suggestions too. ;)
Mariachi, who wants his helmet to make headbutts HURT
From: LadyAce
Saturday, January 16, 01:47PM
Actually, we have some of the second suggestion in already -- called
tools. But the builders haven't put many of them in yet.
As for the first suggestion, while it sounds very cool, I'm thinking
that damage roll and hitroll may well be overpowered right now, and it
would have to go in as part of a larger reform of the roll system to
be anything but a big overpowering.
-LadyAce
From: Bulk
Saturday, January 16, 05:51PM
In my experience hitroll doesn't affect str fighters too much,
or rather, it doesn't really work too well against high-dex ppl in most
cases, unless they are sitting.
But yeah, i think hit and dam is overly abundant -- kinda silly that
a 100 str char HAS to use +dam eq to match damage with those wimpy
chars who simply invest in a few +dam stuffs (the only reason that you
might want high str is to bash or to avoid bash, but it's silly that
once you take that risk of getting bashed, str has really nothing
to offer aside from damroll -- so much unlike dex or con, with dex
giving various bonuses to ac, hitroll, dodge, tumble, parry and
con giving bonuses to hps, mvs, susceptibility to elbow, choke, etc
).
I mean, there is something wrong imho when any weakling can get
+29ish damroll with the +dam gear (and the stats from them) while a
100 str char without any damroll can only attain 23. Perhaps damroll
that is given by gear should be halved (i honestly don't see much
benefit from hitroll).
Bulk
From: Davien
Saturday, January 16, 05:58PM
I recall Rufus saying once that hitroll and damroll affect everything
when he was asked about them affecting backstab on channels. Either
that means I have faulty recall (probably), thats the case (maybe),
or things have changed since then and this post is worthless. Make
use poultice your own mind,
Oooooooh the good old 'up' alias!
Davien Holyoake.
From: Adolfus
Saturday, January 16, 08:31PM
I disagree about str not giving any benefits. My char i pkill
with has 80 or so str, and thats a lot i figure. I use one horn
and one brine ring to push damroll up to about 33. Mo was saying
the same thing when I was talking to him about tweak eq. At the
same time he was saying how much better str fighters where cuz
everyone once in a while they did massive damage, therefore had
a chance to end a fight in 1 round, he also didnt like the idea
of tweak eq with damroll bonuses, because it took away from str
fighters.
The problem isnt with damroll eq, maybe str should give more
of a damroll bonus, but in my opinion saying there shouldn't be
any damroll eq for anyone, is just another way of saying str fighters
suck please fix them so we can kick everyones butt.
The real problem ive found isnt exactly with str weapons, but with
any weapon that weighs a whole lot. The new extra heavy con
weapon also doesnt hit very often on average.
I stick with 80 str, and 100 con and use a heavy brahman, and it
lands a consistent average for me. Instead of missing most of the
time and then hitting big every once in a while.
If somebody with 40 str wants to wear some damroll eq then thats
their perogative, a str fighter can wear the same eq and have
more damroll. In the current system you do crap damage if you
dont have damroll, mages stun ppl and still do 20 or 30 hp a round.
If anything you should get more of a damroll bonus for str than
it currently gives, but im not sure this is needed. My char has
80 str, and im happy. Especially if its only a few str fighters
that think their chars are weak. I guess we need a lot of ppls
opinion on this. You know this is a classless system, its not
like theres warriors that cant lower their str and raise another
stat if they think it doesnt give enough of a benefit.
I think the real problem is just that heavy weapons are
big and awkward.
From: Mo
Saturday, January 16, 09:26PM
There is a reason why str sucks, and why i keep coming back to
it despite the fact that it does.
chant vina vant dyn ex can do unexpected amount of damage, useful in pk wh
where the fight largely depends on running and healing -- it foils
some of the ppl to plan on fighting one extra round as opposed to
fleeing right then and there, making it a more a psychological
weapon than it is a gaming weapon.
As far as str sucking, several reasons.
1. damage is reduced in pk -- absolute amount of damage done by
chant vina vant dyn ex fighters go down more drastically than the damage d
done by other characters -- narrowing the gap of damage done by
different char types. This already diminishes the effect of str
fighters.
2. damcap -- despite having the damcap relatively high, it is
still reachable rather predictably under certain circumstances,
namely with rage and stun, or rage and bash by str fighters. this
means that str fighters are robbed once again of their damage
inducing capability, whereas dex and con fighters never have to
worry about damcaps.
3. duration of fights -- thanks to the increase in effective hps
due to reduced damage in pk, fights last longer, meaning that the
absolute number of times tumble, dodge, parry, or other chance
based skill went up. Having all of those things go up means
that dex-based chars have more of an edge, even if they are
not totally dex and are using it as a side -- but all these
things foil str fighters more than most, simply because heavy
weaponry don't get as many swings -- thus, when trading blows,
chant vina vant dyn ex fighter's damage can be reduced by much more by a s
single dodge, parry, or whatnot -- and when tumble kicks in,
bash is the worst -- 3 round delay as opposed to 2, again
foiling str.
All of this negate str, and the only reason you still see str
is that with luck, they can be devastating. Thus, it takes
just luck to be effective as a str fighter, and for plain
fighters, who can have high con and dex (up to 90 or so with
hunt.. err, i mean 100/100/90) there is no real reason to
choose other stats.
Yes, damroll gear is abundant even for str fighters, but such
isn't the case when str fighters seek to indulge in stats
that are not coming from str -- there aren't rings that give
3 dex and 6 hitroll, or held items that give 5 con and 80 hps
etc etc.
Mo!
From: Adolfus
Saturday, January 16, 09:47PM
I really don't see a problem here. First are you sure only
chant vina vant dyn ex fighters can hit the damcap? Second damage has been
doh who turned that on. hehe, starting over.
You sure only strength fighters are hitting the damcap, be
nice for strength fighters im sure if only they did. Second
theres been reduction of damage in pk for a while, and it
affects anyone with 50 damroll the same as far as I can
figure. Anyone with 50 damroll can hit the damcap unless
Im missing something, whether they are using a dex con or
strength weapon. This is how it should be. Maybe we should
have some more decent strength weapons that arent so heavy.
I dont think fights are lasting overly long times, so once
again get a weapon that parries better?
As for the point about the eq I dont understand your point.
Having a str ring with damroll helps strength fighters a heck
of a lot more than it does dex or con fighters.
What would really be stupid is a ring with 3 con 6damroll
or 3 dex 6damroll. I specifically made my char to test the
system, no spells all fight, no healing, and i know expert
arms, swords and fencing. I can easily make either stat
100. Heavy weapons suck no matter what stat they are in!
Its as simple as that as far as I can tell, and I dont
necessarily think they should be changed either.
All these things are the weaknesses for using these
heavy weapons, note how some of these things can be
gotten past simply by switching weapons.
That might not have been very clear, to sum up.
Damcap, duration and damage reduction, affect any char
with 50damroll equally. The other things you mention
affect any char using a 17kg weapon equally.
In the old system damroll and hitroll didnt do much of
nothing, now they do, just like every other mud, and I
think they add a lot to the game. If all these weaknesses
of str fighters you mention were removed, they would
slaughter everyone.
From: Mo
Saturday, January 16, 10:12PM
It is true that heavy weapons get affected equally, but
heavy weapons are what best makes use of damrolls, and I have
yet to see a good light weight trident -- btw, it does seem
that dex weapons, by design, hit more often than slashing
or bludgeoning weapons, even with the same amount of hitroll
(i've had a 100 100 100 char after all, and i did try) but
damcap isn't really reachable by non-str chars in pk.
I've had a sniperling with 34 damroll, and even in the
numerous fights when he was raged (he did rage a bit) and
had the opponent stunned or bashed (via shoot, choke, bs or
bash) he hasn't hit ANY damcaps -- quite contrary to str
fighters who, in my experience, hit damcap in pk without
even having to rage (rare, but happens) with just 35
damroll and having the opponent bashed. With this char,
who has 40 damroll or so, i've hit up to 3 damcaps in
a single fight, while not hitting any rip to shreds or
decimates.
What this means is that str fighters have huge oscillation
of damage, and that evens out, except that some of
our maxes are cut off by the damcap -- i can tell you
right now, i have yet to see anyone other than str hit
the damcap in pk.
And don't be fooled into thinking that a reduction in %
is universal to all types of characters -- it definately
isnt. It's always absolute numbers that matter, and when
taking into account absolute numbers, the gap (and, thanks
to the mud rounding down, even in ratios, if you
calculate it, you will see that dex and con damage goes
up slightly compared to str under a reduction) narrows
between the fightertypes.
Also, chance of stuff goes up with longer fights --
the only chance based skill in a str fighter's
arsenal (positively, that is) is elbow, whereas
dex and con have backstab, headbutt, choke, warcry
and shoot -- the longer the duration of combat, more
likely luck will swing to their favor.
Damroll also only applies when you hit the target,
making it rather plain and obvious that dex chars
who have more chance to hit can make the most of
the same amount of damroll -- although their
weapons will prohibit from reaching damcap, their
average goes up a lot.
From: Urg
Sunday, January 17, 01:04AM
ummm from a totally mobkill standpoint I really don't see any problems
I got like err 65 damroll or thereabouts and I damcap a whole lot.
Though I would like to see mebbe a little more dam bonus with just raw str
seeing as you gotta invest a whole lotta rent to get a good damroll.
-Urg (realllly tired so I doubt this makes sense)
From: Adolfus
Sunday, January 17, 01:47AM
Your right a char that doesnt consistently hit the target
will be penalized with a damcap, and damage reduction for pkill.
Simple math if you throw out higher values you want your mean
rounds to be more consistent. My char is only lvl 39
with 33 damroll, I get a few ripped to shreds with heavy
brahman, so I feel with 11k more rent space I could hit
caps sometimes.
So you saying Strength fighters are underpowered?
The way I look at it if I couldnt have damroll eq I
couldnt be much of a fighter. Even 100 strength fighters
would be pretty wimpy id think.
From: Mo
Sunday, January 17, 01:55AM
If damroll was more related to str than eq, than you
wouldnt get hurt having 80% str of a str fighter, but
you won't do better than a str fighter with 100 str. As it is,
damroll is way too independent from str (of the maximum
damroll achievable, less than 30% is from strength) whereas
others such as hitroll and hps are more closely related to
their stats (from max, probably 45% ish and 70%ish respect0
fully).
Mo!
From: Adolfus
Sunday, January 17, 01:59AM
Well I still say if str fighter used same damroll eq, as
much as possible and a sensible lighter weight weapon, they
would do more damage than most ppl, and get past
some of the issues you raised, but in light of Rufus saying
high level mobs are too hard, Id like to see one of those
damroll eq slots taken up by a sanc ring.
From: Mo
Sunday, January 17, 02:02AM
Ah, but there's a point you keep missing. A non-str can
use damroll eq to imitate str, but those options are not
available for str fighters. If there were just as many
kinds of equipment giving dex and con bonuses (hps, hitroll,
acs, better tumble, parry, dodge, etc etc) only then it
would be anywhere near fair -- a str fighter with damroll
still will have only one aspect that is better, whereas a
dex fighter with damroll can augment their weakness (not
having damroll) by using damroll gear.
In an extreme example, imagine there were enough accessible
damroll gear such that everyone could hit the damcap, or
that nonstr fighters could hit rip to shreds while str
fighters hit the cap.. it's pretty obvious that the extra
damroll doesn't matter -- the same is true at this point,
where the gap of damage dealt is narrowed to such a point
that damroll from str doesn't cover it. The only reason
strength fighters still are usable is that bash totally
gets rid of a lot of the bonuses a dex fighter has (ability
to flee, ability to hit more often, ability to dodge more
often) and thus str fighters can try to depend on their
bashes not failing.
There needs to be a defensive attribute linked to str
(such as dex and con, con's defense being stun or simply
enduring more), such as reducing the number of attacks
the opponent is dealing when they parry.
Mo!
From: Adolfus
Sunday, January 17, 02:12AM
I see what you mean, but do you feel they are actually
underpowered. My char has 80 str cuz I feel 80 is enough
and theres not much advantage to having more. I don't like
strength weapons, but im a fighter anyway, so I think
I deserve to have the high damroll anyway. Of course
there is hitroll eq, and it will make you land more hits
and help your average, id think. The real question is
for mages and other types of chars. Fighters are gonna
use what damroll they can, and they should have it
available I think. Now if there was good mana eq
and hp eq that was really appealing to mages and in
the same slot, they might use that. The hp rings
in the game are cool, and t-bone did use them. Thats
about the only piece of eq fighting that category, with
nice rent. Course you got a str weapon with a bit of hp
on it right? That help some. Maybe if there was a held
item that added up to 50 points of mana and hp in some
combination would take these horns out of ppls hands.
Id say the fight system is very balanced though.
From: Ma
Sunday, January 17, 07:11AM
I still think there should be only one kind of weapons training
rather than dex/str/con, it'd allow anyone to use any weapon
available as long as they had the str to wield it.
You'd then be able to use dex for # of attacks, perc for hitroll
and o'course strength for damroll & max weapon damage..
From: Rufus
Sunday, January 17, 11:10AM
Okay, sidelight to the discussion but either:
A) figure out how to turn aliases off when posting
or
B) start accepting the fact you'll get warned for posting spell
combos on the boards.
-Ruf
From: Zeppelin
Sunday, January 17, 03:55PM
I agree with almost everything Mo said, except his conclusion
(I think I read it right). Yes. Plus Damroll EQ gives a huge boost
to non-str chars, ie 2 horns and 2 certain rings will give you +24
whereas 100str only gives you +23? I can live with this, I guess.
But there needs to be some balance. A comparable ring for con would
be +3con and +70HP same rent, or for mind: +3mind +70mana same rent.
However, these items do not exist for any other stat. In fact, items
for other stats and hit/hp/mana seem to be pretty pretty much suck
or be an absurd rent amount. I guess I'm coming back to my
-snicker- favorite subject -- we need more cool EQ.
Anyways, strength fighters are not underpowered. I mean maybe, if
you have 100 str and <50 in every other and no +damroll EQ. But
come on -- whos this @ lev 50?
chant vina vant dyn ex fighters have the ability to up any other stat to 1
be a mage/druid/what not to 'augment' the fact that other chars
have so much damroll EQ.
(oops sorry Rufus)
Just saw that -- I would erase and start over but erasing appends seems
to be broke.
Anyways to sum up -- I agree with Mo that there needs to be some
way to even out the fact that every char in the game regardless
of type seems to use 1-2 horns and 1-2 +dam rings.
Zep
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