It has always bothered me that as someone who has played here almost two
years, that because of my dedication and commitment I have to suffer the
consequences. What I mean by this is simply, the imms make grand changes
to the system structure whether it be spells, casting costs, requirements
and benefits of hometowns. I have spent many years playing my characters
and dont feel that to keep up to date I must perma because I simply want
to be a great character. The only time you offer us the smallest degree
of change is when new skills go in, and it is my strong belief that change
-s like the hometowns and such, need to be offered for consideration like
new skills. Why must I waste years of play to start over because good
ideas come later? Us older characters should be privilaged enough to be
offered the chance to adapt easier to change rather than starting over.
It may be extra work on your part, but for us who have spent 500+ hours,
that is also a lot of work to be lost.
Marauder - the Rambling Insane Mage
From: Fright
Tuesday, January 05, 06:53AM
Good point. I know when elbow and choke were added that players had a
chance to change skills, but forcing them to give up a fight skill to
get the new one was a little absurd. Why would anyone intentionally
take fight skills that they don't need? If new skills are added I don't
see why older players should be penalized or forced to perma to stay
competative. (look at Point and Mandolin after choke came in) And at
this point it's a lot harder for a person to get to level 50 than it
used to be, restarting your character, losing eq/strings and a huge
amount of time isn't very desireable.
I await the post from one of a few imms that are going to say "then suffer
with what you have" I really don't think that is the point. I have noticed
that less and less level 50 characters are on the mud lately. It's harder
for new pleyers to get help, and new characters to get help too.
I think any major change to any character should not only be posted
well before the change, but that the character should have the chance
to adapt to these changes and not simply be told to start over or shut
up. (I am speaking from experience on choke additions, where there was
a 2 week window to exchange a skill for that one, and if you didn't log
on in those 2 weeks, you got screwed over)
Established high level characters, (oldbies) add more positive atmosphere
each to this mud than 10 level 1 characters. I don't see how making a
person want to perma their character to start over helps the mud at all.
Fright
From: Rufus
Tuesday, January 05, 07:31AM
Okay, false use of a perma situation... Point and Mandolin perma'd
because the players were sitting right next to each other, drunk off
their butts, and one of us said "Hey! Let's perma each other with
doppels and start over!" which at the time seemed like a really cool
idea. It had nothing to do with choke, parry or anything, though we
did gain those skills upon recreating the characters... it wasn't
THE reason or even PART of the reason. We did it for the hell of it.
-Ruf
From: LadyAce
Tuesday, January 05, 09:29AM
Which new skills/changes (in particular) do you feel place oldbies
at a disadvantage? I know you mentioned skill swapping, and since that
is Sandra's policy to set, I'll let her speak about it. But what else?
The main ones I see are the changes to stun (but stun has been all
over the board for as long as I can remember), the decreased cost of
damage spells (trying to make it so that a given char type doesn't
completely suck, that doesn't hurt oldbies, it is more likely to help
them), the increased abilities for Klein (again, I know lots of oldbies
who started in Klein who are glad to get the boost), the increased
abilities for London surgeons (ok, so Lima characters are not the only
thing to be any more. They still have unique advantages.)
Is there really a way for us to both balance the game for the people
who are screaming at us every single day to fix blah thing, who are
upset at having to wait an entire week for a change, and for the
people who want to know about changes a month in advance? We can't
please everyone, and so we do what we think is right. On the one hand,
I understand that having more notice on changes would allow players to
adjust more easily, it also means that we have to sit through hours and
hours of people ranting about how they hate the change or how they want
us to put it in right away because the situation is a dire emergency.
In addition, some of the changes we make are because a particular combo
is simply too powerful. And with those kinds of changes, there is no way
for a char with that too powerful combo, to recover from the loss. In most
cases, we try to balance a bonus in one area with a loss in another, to
prevent the mud from going down in a mad power spiral.
On another note, our changes are not made with any intent to annihilate
a given character type. If your type has been annihilated, then we went
too far, and when we understand how to fix it, we'll do so. In the mean
time, if you've perma'd your character and started all over, you'll never
know if we were able to fix the problem.
-LA
From: Fright
Tuesday, January 05, 09:56AM
Hmm, I heard different reasons from one of the 2 characters, but those
characters aside, it still happens with others. Those 2 names just
came to mind.
I know there are people that did perma because of choke and parry and
that they didn't have the practices to get the skills or have the
fightskills to swap for those fightskills.
I think the lima/london change was one that supports my previous
append. For a very long time, if you were a going to become a
surgeon, there was no contest what city was better, lima. Once
the bonus to london surgeons came in, I noticed a lot of liman
surgeons stopped playing (I won't give their names at the risk
of being wrong, but I know there are some). Why couldn't these
characters have had the option of switching hometowns when the
change went in?
I know it's dumb to complain about something that happened 6 months
ago or more, but it's simply an example. I am sure that most players
who had liman characters weren't too thrilled with the bonus to the
londoners when they couldn't change hometown. With a change like the
bonus to klein characters fight skills, there should also be the option
to change hometowns. I don't think many old characters came from klein,
or really many characters at all, old or new. But again, I am sure that
there are fighters out there that came from somewhere else because klein
wasn't terribly good, that would now love to be from klein to gain the
advantages that the klein fighters get.
I am not sure that granting this option to a level 2 character is
viable simply for the amount of work it could potentially cause for
the imms. But if the change was allowed 1 TIME ONLY, fo chracters
over a set level (level 10 seems reasonable to me) it really can't
affect too many characters (wanting to change).
As for what to do with skills that were learnt and couldn't be had
as a klein character, there are options like returning the practices
and losing the skills.
Also, a 2 week window to do this would be absurd, since not everyone
logs on every 2 weeks. I am sure most people do, but you should be able
to have equally good characters if you spend 500 hours on the character
spanning 1 year, as 500 hours spanning 1 month. Some people simply can't
be on everyday.
I am not saying this should be law. I just think that if the immortal
staff is going to significantly change a specific part of a character
(as well as a major part) that these options should be given.
This does not mean that if a cause spell is changed, you give the
person the option to go create. I mean major changes. (skills in
the game, hometown changes relating to character creation, adding
in new spellwords, etc)
I think we see enough perma in pkill, of players that want to try
a new character type in pkill. There is no need to 'help' more
characters to follow the perma option.
Fright
From: Fright
Tuesday, January 05, 10:11AM
Changes like stun can be fixed with the swapping of eq and that's not
too difficult to do. Decreasing damage spells cost doesn't affect
anyone but 3rd circle mages (yeah, 1 or 2 non-3rd circle spell) and
it's not giving them a disadvantage.
I'd like to think that suggestions made on this board are above the
realm of 'screaming' but if that's how you see it, so be it. I know
that my posts here are meant to be constructive, and 99% of the other
posts I read here are constructive. I would go as far as to say that
often the least constructive posts that are on this board are from
immortals. (simply saying somethign can't or won't be done isn't
very constructive at all, at least give a reason)
There is also a very large difference between bug fixes and major
changes. I don't think bug fixes need to be warned 3 weeks in
advance, but for something like hometowns/surgery change or fight
system changes, it woundn't hurt to post "this is coded and ready,
and it will go in in 2 (or 3 or whatever) weeks time barring some
flaw/bug/holes that we missed"
Changes to spells/combos that are too powerful I would consider a
bug fix.
Fright
From: Sandra
Tuesday, January 05, 10:27AM
When I put up the 2 week time limit on exchanging skills, I gave a
weeks notice prior to that(making it 3 weeks total). The time limit
was given so that those that weren't level 50 at the time would not
be able to decide to hit 50 spend pracs and then ask for the exchange
as was attempted several times during the last skills exchange.
As far as changing hometowns. Um, no. If you seriously think that
you need to perma a character and start it from the new improved
hometown, well that's pretty silly. Why not keep the high level one
and just make a new one? Either way you're starting over, though
the second you keep the work you've done already.
I seriously doubt we'd ever allow exchanging hometowns. Its entirely
too much work.
As for perma in pkill. If you think that little of your character
to start with, as some tool that you can discard quickly when one
or two changes go in to another type, then I suggest that you
not complain to us about your work going to waste. We're not the ones
telling you to perma. The majority of the people that put alot of
work into their characters actually keep them and make new ones
to test the change. Retiring pkillers or just using them as non-
pkillers. I find it funny that it seems to be the fault of the
staff that some of the players want everything and can't have it
all.
-Sandra
From: LadyAce
Tuesday, January 05, 10:49AM
I agree with Fright that most of the posts on the discussion board
are reasonably sane and do not qualify as screaming. However,
there are a number of other methods by which players voice
their opinions, including tells, chats, mudmail, etc.
At any rate, I'll try to remember this request and if I
hear of any changes which people might like a longer time span
on, I'll ask that it be delayed. In addition, when the code changes
are posted, players have the option of asking that a given
change be delayed. While this is not always easy to do,
depending on the nature of the code, it is worth asking
about if you feel strongly about the subject.
-LadyAce
From: Parasite
Tuesday, January 05, 01:34PM
I have to agree with Fright and Marauder here with the fact that I'm
remaking a character from Klein now and feel that I need to ditch my
pkiller who has been around for a year or greater. You think its easy to
have negative experience to level and that I want to throw it away? No,
yet I dont have many options. Some considerations should be given to those
who have at least demonstrated great commitment to this mud, especially
by achieving 100 million experience, long hours and what not.
Parasite
From: Sandra
Tuesday, January 05, 01:45PM
If your pkiller has negative exp to level, then it should also have
3 redemption points, one of which could be used to unclan. Then
there is no need for you to 'get rid of' your pkiller, you can
simply retire him/her from pkill.
As someone that has alot of characters, I find the 'I have to perma
to compete' argument a bad one. The fact that not one type is
simply THE best any longer should be reason enough to keep the
one you have and try different things with it. Taking the easy
way out and going with the newest 'in' thing is lazy, imo. If
you want a challenge, think for yourself, and don't follow
what everyone else does.
There is probably no way that we will allow a hometown switch.
I have no intent on putting that much extra work on myself
or the rest of the admin staff because a few people think that
they should be able to have everything. I'm sorry, but it
just isnt' going to happen.
-Sandra
From: LadyAce
Tuesday, January 05, 02:50PM
I think there is a distinction to be made between when we remove the
usefullness of a given skill, and when we simply readjust the
relative power of a given skill. Giving a surgery bonus to London
makes London a more competitive choice for a hometown when you
create a character, but it does not make a Liman surgeon so
irrelevant that you ought to toss them away. It may give a
dedicated Liman surgeon reason to pick up some good brewing
skills and maybe a little shooting or parrying, however. If
some players decide that they only want to group London
surgeons, then it's their loss. I know there are plenty
of players out there who will take on a fighting companion
with skills to complement their own, regardless of where that
person is from.
On the other hand, sometimes we pull out the usefulness of something
altogether. In that case, we reimburse as best we can.
-LA
From: Hrutwang
Tuesday, January 05, 02:50PM
I think, I'm old character. Yes, if I could change hometown, i would
was from Kleinstadt.
Sandra, you and all imms will not allow a hometown switch but
think about what i will say.
There is enough chars at L50, who were great, now are normal or
poor, therefore ppl archieved them.
Let to give them chance start again, but give them something
what will help them. For example gettimg more exps per mob
than normal character. It means, somebody will tell imms
that he wants to keep this char, but he is poor now. He
can start new character but it will take long time and he
can for example never get his exps back.
What I want to say, he will start from L1, but for example
with bonus - 9x more exps per mob than he will get his exps
back. it will be funny and maybe we will see on
chars about whom we thought,
that we will never see again. yes, they will need to keep old
name.
Only one problem here. it will be not accept for pkillers. And yes,
if he dies, he will lost 9x more exps. it seems fair
I think and it will be not so hard to
programme this.
It is all what I wanted to say.
My 2 cents, Hrutwang.
From: Beta
Tuesday, January 05, 02:58PM
why not let people use their redemptions points
when skills trees go in to change their hometown
From: Rufus
Tuesday, January 05, 03:14PM
Changing hometown is not a matter of switching the hometown, it
involves changing 4 axioms, reimbursing skills that you no longer
qualify for (or we could opt for the 'tough luck' principal and
tell the people who wasted 20some pracs on spellwords that they
just can't cast spells any more)... it WOULD be a pain, and not
something that could be easily handled like the redemption system
is currently.
-Ruf
From: Beta
Tuesday, January 05, 03:20PM
i ment to say that when skills trees go in and with the
skill wipe I heard of. you could redeem
your points from something that cloud be given to an
admin, who would then go and change those things that needed
to be changed. maybe you could require 2 redempiton points to
change hometowns, and only let it be for a short time
around when skills trees is implemented. If some of the rumors
of things i have heard about skills trees turn out to be true
(for example, but not nessicarily true, the inability to
learn fightskills from agrabah) some characters will need some
way to change, or else be completly ineffective at anything.
also if new home towns are made avaible, then I think that
chage would be similar to a new skill being made avaible
that affected game balance, with the cost for the change being
the aformentioned redemption points.
From: Adolfus
Tuesday, January 05, 08:55PM
The biggest joke in my opinion, is limited the time you can
exchange something, ie skills. Headbutt for choke etc.
So what if you announced it 3 weeks prior sandra, thats not any
amount of time at all. Any archived player should have the
option of getting choke for headbutt when unarchiving.
In fact any chars that are dex fighters and have headbutt
and not choke, should be able to turn it in.
What this would be too much work for you.
I don't see the advantage of bunching all your work into a three
week period unless its just to screw those ppl that dont get
the change done in time. If its some char that was made
after the change to headbutt then you can tell them no for
that reason.
I find it very silly also that the xp for somme and roman
britain was reduced or mob hp raised also, from what I could
tell somme anyway was praised for being a good xp area.
Tho I have yet to xp there since the change, as I and some
others have been playing medievia.
From: Sandra
Tuesday, January 05, 09:47PM
And what your suggesting is better? You'd like me to spend all of my
time watching who creates what character and learns what skills,
and what fight stat they use just so that later on they may or may
not be able to exchange headbutt for choke? Give me a break.
Three weeks was plenty of time for the level 50s to exchange their
skills. Those under level 50 had the pracs to learn what they
wanted.
The majority of the people got their exchanges in, btw. And there
were some that were archived for an extended period that were
allowed to exchange also when they returned, if they had no pracs
remaining.
-Sandra
From: Gwalchmai
Tuesday, January 05, 10:11PM
I had a level 50 Liman surgeon that I was extremely fond of, but whom I
have had archived and do not intend to play again anytime soon because of
a variety of factors. A) the changes to fight/surgery, so surgeons are no
longer able to fight while operating, b) the upgrade to
surgery for Londoners, c) the xp split from the new xp scale - everyone
wants a "mid-level londoner" these days, not a level 50 liman,
who's perceived as sucking far more xp than he/she is worth, and d) the
addition of an in game brewing mob.
In reply to LA's post that Liman surgeons could find some way to "upgrade"
themselves via parry/shoot/brew, etc. Mine did -all- of that. And still
what I've found with him is that the only people who say they'd take him
over a mid-level londoner are friends. With other characters this would
be fine, but large group, intensely social interaction was one of the key
parts of this surgeon's RP. Which - with the new xp scale discouraging
big kill-everything groups, and with Liman's being perceived as not up
to par with Londoners in areas that -need- large groups (SL, Dis),
effectively made him redundant.
I suppose I'd just like to point out that this "you can go on playing if
you really like the character" attitude, which implies that I -didn't-
put a lot of time and effort into this particular surgeon, not to
mention the rest of my alts, rather peeves me.
Gwalchmai ap Lot
From: Rebate
Tuesday, January 05, 11:07PM
Figured I'd had better post because in the 4 years that I've
been playing on legend I can agree with Sandra :P. In all the
years that I have been here I've only peram'd one character and he
was a pkiller. Why? because I found out that I don't particularly
like pkill and at that time reaching 100mil was to far outta reach.
Currently I have 8 L50 characters and 2 more in the 40's. Why so
many? because everytime the imms make a change I create a new
character to try out the new changes. And yes I still do play
all of my L50's. I still love playing my limian surgeon, together
with another surgeon from lima we make quite a team. Even the
character I created in Klein over 3 years ago is played alot.
And yes I waited forever for him to receive a bonus of somekind.
Point is I didn't perma him, no need to. Make adjustments if you
have to but don't perma them or complain that they suck and you
have to. Especially if your not a pkiller. Anyway that's it
for now.
Rebate
From: Gwalchmai
Wednesday, January 06, 12:30AM
I've 8 level 50s as well, counting the archived. I was merely stating my
point of view, which, I believe, I'm entitled to just as much as Rebate is
I also did emphasize that a major part of what made me archive my liman
surgeon was the highly social, big group aspect that was part and parcel
of what he was, and which I've found he's no longer able to get.
Again I'd like to say that just because I've archived him and don't play
him because of a variety of changes in no way means I didn't put a lot of
effort into him, and the implication that anyone who stops
playing a particular character because of changed must never really have
cared much about that alt in the first place really annoys me.
Gwalchmai ap Lot
From: Rei
Wednesday, January 06, 06:18AM
Speaking as a Liman surgeon, did the London boost affect my abilities?
It didn't. I'm still the person I set out to be. Of course I couldn't
match a Londoner operate for operate, but there's so much more I can
do that he can't. Would you rather we were level on surgery, and I had
lots of other nifty skills while he was stuck with 20 practices? The
current lack of demand for Liman surgeons is not because London
surgeons are overpowered, but because the Limans just haven't found
their niche. Are you suggesting that since the Klein update all
Celtic fighters are going to be redundant? I play a level 50 London
surgeon too, and he doesn't find it much easier to find a group
than this Liman does.
If I decided that after the change to Klien, I wanted to be a Kliener,
I'd make a character from Klien. Who knows? Someday Limans will be able
to augment, get second circle words etc.. and then everyone will pestet
.. er.. pester the immorts to change all characters to Limans. Legend
is not about being the best character on the MUD.. it's about knowing
the strengths and weaknesses of each character, and use each to your
best ability to fit in. If I suddenly became a Londoner, I'd still
have no one to group with because some selfish people only want to
group with small Londoners. It's not my problem. It's not the MUD's
problem.. it's not the imm's problem. It's a player problem.
If I think I'll like being a certain character from a certain hometown
due to some nifty changes.. I'll do just that.. make one - it's not
THAT hard if you're not too lazy. If I perma this character simply
because she can't compete with a London surgeon.. someday I'll regret
it, and I'll whine about Limans being overpowered again. Just try
a new character.. variety is the spice of life, and nothing comes from
nothing. You don't start characters at level 50.. you build them.
Rei Ayanami
From: LadyAce
Wednesday, January 06, 11:49AM
I do think that Gwalmachai has a good point about the preference for
midlevel Londoners, but the precise problem is not our changes to
London. The problem is with healers, and grouping healers.
After all, I don't see any more call for level 50 London surgeons or
lvl 50 druids, than I do for a lvl 50 Liman surgeon. It's obvious
that the xp scale changes have hurt healers, but the reason for
the damage is, in my mind, not a simple one.
On the one hand, you have healers who work ungrouped, who sit
in inns and bot heal. If they are conveniently located, a lot
of the usage for a grouped healer disappears. One of the
virtues of having a healer is the ability to keep on fighting
continuously, without having to stop and rest, and for mages
at least, to devote their mana to damage spells rather than
to healing, or to prolong their need to meditate. That need
disappears with the ungrouped/bot healing.
The healing need which remains is the 'keeping you alive'
type of healing, i.e. for large runs, large mobs, deep
trips into hell/SL.
Another factor in this is the xp split, which we're working
on, and mob xp value, which we're also working on.
A third angle to this is player perception. On the one hand,
it is unfair for people to suddenly view all limans as
worthless. Plainly, they're not, and those who refuse
to accept them are missing out.
As a last dimension of the problem, what about the healers
themselves? I don't want to 'blame the victim' but in this
case the victims have power to do something about their
situation. You can make arguments on your own behalf. You
can demonstrate your usefulness. You can be more proactive
-- heck, if this sort of thing happened in real life, the
surgeons of the world would unionize :)
As we examine what the immortal staff can do to fix problems,
I don't want anyone to forget how much players can do to
fix problems, too.
-LadyAce
From: Shine
Wednesday, January 06, 11:59AM
I'm not choosing between low level or high level
surgeon. If somebody is surgeon, i'm grouping with him.
Myself, I don't like small surgeon. They don't have
mana all the time. And as a fighter I need surgeon
around me or I can kill mobs in dun and go to read
a book for another 25 minutes. -blink-
Shine, the son of Aaron
From: Mandarb
Wednesday, January 06, 07:40PM
Just a side note, I DID have a char archived for a very LONG time,
this time covering the choke change. Upon returning I asked to
exchange it and was rejected because I had been on with other characters.
Sorry, but I archived him for a reason, because if i didn't I'd forget
he existed becauseh...oooh...HE SUCKS. But anyway, this is off topic,
my character sucking has little to do with my point. I was archived
for like 6 months and upon unarchiving was rejected choke. Whatever, its
bs if you ask me, but nobody ever does. This damn append is far
at the bottom nobody wille ven read it.
From: Sandra
Wednesday, January 06, 07:58PM
Yep, you were turned down. You were on consistantly during those
two weeks as other characters. Therefore you were not gone and could
have very easily ask to unarchive that char, as others did for their
own during that time, get the exchange, and then archive again.
-Sandra
From: Adolfus
Thursday, January 07, 12:05AM
If you don't have time to do your job get someone to do it in
your place. Think some of you may be suffering from burnout.
Someone who I respect made the statement 'absolute power corrupts
absolutely
regarding the imms here. I won't mention names, and im sure
they didnt mean it as a blanket statement, but I think its obvious
to most of us anyway that imms should be trying to make this game
more fun so it will attract more players. For the most part I
would say you could use player reaction as a guage for this.
Now you state a reason for not giving Mandarb's char choke/heabutt
change, which would lead me to believe that your possibly
evalutating on a case by case basis. But on the other hand you
state that no reimbs will be given for any reason. Which is flat
wrong. If someone just now came back and pulled a char out of
archive that hasnt played since they change, they would have
to come beg you to bend the rules. Which is typical mud behavior
I would say, kinda like cops, they want power over others and
for ppl to beg them for things, and to recieve adoration for
being an imm. As someone who is just a Player, I would like to
remind you imms if you don't like your jobs, you can always
step down. Then you would have time for whatever.
If there is another job that is more important your working on
then id say its time to get smore imms to help out. If you find
yourself posting a lame excuse for something id say delete it
and see if you cant find another solution. That goes for
the pkill points system that was suggested and a myriad of other
things ive heard naysayed.
peace
From: Wraith
Thursday, January 07, 01:19AM
I would have to agree that more players would be good. However, the
players desired, would not please you. ;) I would much rather have
players interested in at least some RP and interacting with mobs. If
all you are looking for is advancing your character's abilities or
fighting other characters, you could try Diablo. ;)
- Wraith
From: Adolfus
Thursday, January 07, 01:37AM
That kinda makes sense, but id say make the game more fun. Don't
make the mud less fun in order to keep ppl away.
And id say to me anyway it seems theres more undesirables
than there was a few years back and the player base hasnt
expanded to a large extent. I wouldnt want things to be made
too easy or for ppl to be overpowered. Id rather mobs fight
more intelligently, and be worth a lot more xp. I would
say 10x harder for 10x more xp, but with the xp for high
lvl mobs atm just upping the xp 10x would balance it.
Id say number 1 priority should be reevaluating mob xp.
