| Bogus changes to STUN |
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| Bogus changes to STUN |
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The recent changes to stun make worse for wears happen way to often and last way too long. In dueling Barabas, he got 3 wfw's outa 4 stuns cast on me. All of which lasted between 4 and 5 rounds.
This is CRAP! I am sure this was not the intention when this code went in, so I ask that it be re-evaluated. I have no prob with the changes in regards to needing 10 more and 60mind min, but 3rd circle mages getting the increased number and length of worse for wears completely unbalanced PK. If you dont believe me, check out Beams page of logs.
Zeus
Toning down stun is a good idea. I also think increasing the lag after a wfw is a good idea (like getting a para bs).
My 2 cents ...
Amati
And Fishshape on a mage is ridiculous. Make a shape that makes fighters no_stun then we can find some balance.
Don't want to rain on anyones parade, I hand it to the ppl that know about fishshape and use it and I don't call them cheaters or anything. It's just smart to use what works.
I guess since choke and warcry are about the only options to use against fishshape, then they should be no_fail against fishshape to make it even.
On the other hand fighters against mages without fishshape is pretty close I think, and stuns could just be considered a penalty for having low mind.
Mandarb complained that there was no reason to play 100 mind 3rd circle chars, and got an improvement.
This sucks. I don't want everyone to start doing this.
Zeus just told me he got stunned 9 rounds on 2 wfw's. This is crap the maximum rounds for any stun should be the same, if stun does a max of 5 rounds then bs, headbutt and warcry should all have a maximum of 5 rounds. Actually I liked how things were before so it was more random. It also takes much of the skill out of fighting when your skill announces to you that you get a dazing headbutt or a worse for wear. Gives you time to set up and everything The fight system is very balanced I think in terms of str dex and con fighters just hitting, and skills all seem to be about the same also, wfw's seem to have gotten a major upgrade if they are lasting longer than skills.
This is crap. Don't let ppl that are worried about their chars talk you into giving them upgrades. No reason to play 3rd circle? Thats crap. Prior to the changes Mandarb while invis binded and blinded me and immoliated me to death, whilst I barely hit him. Mandarb sucks butt for whining.
Just to set the record right, this is my first fighter type char I have clanned, and I did so just to figure the system out a bit and see where things stood. I have mage chars I am working on.
I urge everyone not to whine about themselves, everyone keep fight logs and I will post them on my sight. Then ppl can judge for themselves if a person lost a fight because they have no skill or won a fight because of some silly imbalance issue. Then the imms can look at the logs and decide for themselves.
The imms don't have time to be tweaking for pkill all the time but on the other hand things need to be balanced, and there will always be slight tweaking going on or the mud stagnates.
BUT, I think the stun length is too long compared to other fight skills right now. On the other hand, stun costs too much if it does much less than this.
My suggestion is to lower a wfw's length to 3 rounds max, or give it a skill lag of 3 rounds on a sucessful wfw. Fright
3 rounds of stun is good enuf, without being able to throw a double damage immoliate in on top of it.
And for stun? Well, 100 mind mages do give up fight stats to achieve high mind. Gotta be some benefit from it. I think just for being hit, I'd much rather be scratched by a character with 1 100 fight stat than a tanker character with close to 3 100s and enough hit/dam roll to make grown men cry.
North
Yeah, I think it might be overpowered a bit... I'll talk to Ea! about it =)
-Ruf
Z
No matter, I'm staying away from flamethrowers no matter how good or weak stun may be.
Doesn't reduce my power at all. I don't need upgrading, and i'm not advocating reducing someone else's power. Things were fine how they WERE.
danke scheun
Zeus like most str fighters hits damn hard. As I was fighting him, not stunned, not bashed, upright with a club in hand, he got rips and decimates. Mages either worse for wear or die. I'd agree that a 3 round cap for worse for wear would be fine, but it should also almost always be 3 rounds. Why? The mana cost for one.. the fact that you have to have significantly more mind than your opponent for another.
And to whoever said that all stuns should be the same, fine... when stun costs no mana and you can't backlash on it, I'll agree with you.
Barabas BoneCrusher
Z
-Ruf
North
This is even harder to do with the change to priority.
I also think the system unfairly rewards those people who spam headbutt target and wait for their opponent to enter the room. While normally this would be pretty silly, when you know your opponent is coming, ie a duel its much too effective.
If anything thing there should be a lag associated with spamming skills. I don't think moving the mud towards spamming and waiting for your target to enter is the way to go.
I think one should lose full mana for missed spells and typos.
I guess one could meet in the middle and say mages should have short lag and lose 1/2 mana, and skills should have 1/2 the skill delay it normally would.
Don't reward the person who stands in a room spamming a skill or spell waiting for a victim. I have a hard time putting in words how poorly I view these tactics.
peace
Make stun spell so opponent can hit when he will be stunned?
What's an idea.. So we can make headbutt, so if you dazed your opponent then he will hit you too.
Yes, it is true, make all skills and spell, how you can stun opponent, that they will last the same number of rounds, but probability on getting stun have ti be different.
I won't to see fight between str figter and a mage, if mage will stun figter for 3 rounds with his spell and then str will for example headbutt him and get 2 damcamps or so.
Maybe imms will figure it out.
I don't know, but when I think about pkill, it was make so every kind of character (if player is good) has to have chance to kill every kind of another character, or no?
Shine, the son of Aaron
something like headbutt? Maybe it will more ppl use it when there will be more probability of getting stun? And for example make it so you can get 1 round stun as at headbutt or normal carotid.
Shine
When I made this char I new exactly what I was getting into, but you see, things were changed since then.
Someone complained and got 3rd circle upgraded. I personally have no experience with stun being overpowered. Only stun in conjunction with fishshape have I had bad experiences with and I didn't die then either. Maybe stun isn't over powered, but I think we are definately going in the direction of mages being a lot easier to play. Ie get a message telling you you get a worse for wear. Heck just make a trigger on worse for wear:clear;immoliate, wheres the skill in that. And gonna make it so you can just spam stun, wow. That will be great, a mage with fishshape with spamming stuns. I could care less about my pkiller, he is one dimensional to be sure. I just don't want to see things get moronic. If 3rd circle is overpowered I will make a 3rd circle. Thats half the battle in pkill anyway. Char generation. We already caused some things to be changed in the old system. Just hate to see the mud going in the wrong direction.
Beam/McDonald
peace
Why should mages lose ANY mana on types or absent targets. This game isn't a typing competition. And as T-Bone pointed out, the main reason for missing a target is a slow link, often due to netlag from playing overseas. Its hard enough to miss first attack, or not land an attack at all, because of netlag, without an extra penatly. There is no reason why it should be made much harder to play a mage than a fighter with a slow link. And looking at your fightlogs, it really amazes me that somebody who uses triggers has the nerve to speak with contempt of pretyping as a strategy (often the only way that somebody with a slow link has any chance to get in at attack).
Triggers simply remove ALL the skill from the game (as does autohunt). The fact that pretyping is allowed in recalltag, but not triggers, should give some clue as to which of these 'tactics' should be viewed more poorly. Not to mention, pretyping does not just mean standing in a room waiting for a target to enter. In the fightlogs I can see a lot of pretyping used when hunting a target and getting a fresh trail, and pretyping 'headbutt target' before entering the room, by which time the target has often moved on. All would result in wasted mana for a mage.
Mages should have as much chance to use these strategies as fighters. Either remove the costs for mages, or introduce costs to pretyping or typo'ing skills, but the latter would unfairly penalize those with slow connections, poor typing skills and lack of triggers and aliases.
Ishtar
Luckily Firestorm goes off if the target isn't in the room anymore, least I hope it does, it surely should. I guess you would like to save your mana if your target isn't in the room huh. Lets make things really easy, hehe.
You may not realize it but you do suffer some lag pretyping skills when you move rooms. Specially if you dont have a quick connection. It sounds like you want it so that someone across the world with a crap link can compete with someone on a T1 line. This is sheer stupidity. If you want that kinda link buy it, or play somewhere closer. I personally play on a 33.6 modem. We certainly don't want gameplay to try to balance for connection times also. If your lagging I submit that your likely to get your butt kicked. I tend not to fight ppl when im lagging like this. Don't whine for someone to save mages from lag, geez whine whine whine.
I use aliases like wh = west;headbutt, in order to speed up my typing even more, and to defeat the type ppl who sit in a room waiting for me spamming headbutt beam. Since there has always been a lag on spells and spells have cost mana, your asking for a change so your char will be better. Get off it, deal with the system how it is. Don't condemn the way I fight, because what I do is dictated by the system. If it works I do it.
Spamming headbutt and waiting for your target rewards the wrong thing I think, and its fairly effective as long as you know who is coming for you. Like in duels, and after fights have started. As you can see if you read my fight logs, using some good aliases generally defeats this mindless spamming. But I surely don't want the system to reward mages who do likewise. I guess you want all your spells not to use mana if your target leaves the room. Even armor and chant guh gam dyn ex person etc. geez
If its not a typing contest what is it? You want the mud to enter the commands for you? Do you type out all your spells without an alias?
If you have netlag your gonna suffer, and when you fight someone who can really type you will feel it. Irony was a fast typist and you could tell. Don't whine for things to be changed, cuz right now pretyping is a horrible stragety for a mage. Even if you don't lose mana, your gonna have a bit of chant lag, and thats plenty. I never have liked recalltag much, tho i did win it twice in a row once. What is allowed in recalltag has nothing to do with playing the mud. Are you suggesting that only things it recalltag should be allowed on the mud?
I don't see a very strong arguement for yourself in this post.
If mages weren't supposed to be harder to play, instead of typing out chant guh lak vya ex target, one would be able to just type -stun- target.
Mages have always been the best chars on this mud, least tarans anyway, but they are harder to make and take a bit more thinking.
Deal with it.
peace
I will use Beam's words, as he so eloquently put it in his last append, I believe in response to Ishtar's complaint about losing mana on missed spells: Get off it, and deal with the system the way it is.
I think sterling and beam are both dead wrong in saying just to deal with the system the way it is. Of course you're going to have to deal with it, but just because it is the way it is, doesn't mean it's not broken.
-Ruf
Then again, I dont think mages need fixing, I personally think the people who originally set up the system knew what they were doing.
Some of the new things are good, some arent. I dont think its good to lobby to have your chars improved.
I dont think links have anything to do with it, I think its all skill, and if you type stun so and so, and so and so has left, thats your tuff luck.
Your running things you do what you want Rufus.
You stepped down from being head builder and there wasnt anyone to replace you was there?
So Ishtar is ready to defend your idea anyway. I don't think theres anything wrong with mages. From your last post I take it your gonna remove the lag from typoed spells also? And from when target has left the room?
I dont really like the idea of making areas where you need surgeons operating on you while you fight either.
But I guess there isnt anyone to take your place so ill just wait and see just how easy you make mages to play.
>> I dont think links have anything to do with it, I think its all
... [snip]
what skill is there in typing 'headbutt' over and over until someone walks into the room? Zero.
>> Your running things you do what you want Rufus.
I'm not running things, but my input and contributions do have a lot to do with how spells work (or don't work, as the current case may be).
>>You stepped down from being head builder and there wasnt anyone to replace you was there?
And this has exactly what to do with the discussion at hand? (btw, fyi, if you don't read the wizlist or check 'who' that often, I'm the head builder again =)
Remove the lag? Nope. Shorten it, yep.
When the target has left the room? Nope. Shorten it, yep. Probably charge 1/2 mana cost of the spell, but not the full price. You should never be penalized for having decent cast levels on your spells... which, btw, IS a strategic thing to do (learn your spells young,etc)
>> I dont really like the idea of making areas where you need surgeons
operating on you while you fight either.
But some people do, and in an attempt to make a mud that has a bit in it for everyone, expect them to be there. I certainly don't expect everyone to play there, that's their choice.
>>But I guess there isnt anyone to take your place so ill just wait and see just how easy you make mages to play.
.. and any changes I make in regards to spells is made in the capacity of coding I do, not building. Even when I was not head builder, I was actively coding and doing work such as this to streamline and correct some of the larger errors in the spell system.
There are some things with mages that ARE overpowered (some that were recently fixed, btw) but the thinking that mages should be 'difficult' to play is hogwash. they should be 'different' and perhaps a bit more difficult at lower levels, but on the whole, they should not be penalized for employing the same techniques that other character types take for granted... unless of course those char types wish to have the same disadvantages imposed upon them (skills costing move thereby limiting the number of skills you can do before you need to rest, lags associated with typos and misspelled targetting, victim's leaving the room...) the 'wait' on a headbutt with no target is precisely one pulse... the wait on a mistytped spell is over 18. Fair? doubt it.
-Ruf
The ultimate goal is to get mages (especially pure ones) riding on the power of their spells to drive their combat and other interractions. I think this is a definite step towards that.
As far as area affect spells, there's 2 types of area affect spells, those that require a target (firestorm) and those that do not (earthquake, noise). I'm undecided as to exactly how to handle the targeted ones if the target is not there... again, if this change does ever go in (the sheer amount of work it would take to rewrite where mana is charged and where the targeting takes place is a pretty good chunk of busy work), that will probably be something heavily debated.
-Ruf
Ptah's too busy, and we miss him (just as long as he doesn't code anything himself -cackle-).
-Ruf
-Ruf
I agree with Rufus's reasons for changing the way chant works for game design reasons. I brought up connection speed because I am sick and tired of people who equate having a slow link with being an idiot. Pretyping is sometimes the only way you can get an attack in, as T-Bone pointed out, but you just ignored what he said for some reason, funny that. -chuckle- Whine about people getting a benefit from pretyping after you come up with a way to reduce benefits from using triggers and autohunt. With triggers you don't even have to type anything at all, or even know when your opponent is coming in or be paying full attention to the game for getting an attack in. Its just sheer hypocrisy to benefit from this while sneering at people pretyping which at least requires you to enter a comman yourself and know who is coming after you.
In a situation such as one where you land several headbutts on somebody through your trigger going off as they try to run past you through the room, without a trigger you would have no chance at all of attacking except by spamming a pretyped attack. You think its ok to just stand there and let a trigger go off but not ok to spam a preyped attack. If you were a mage with both triggers and a good connection you could still stand a good chance of landing a spell on the target through a trigger without wasting mana, but without a trigger and a fast connection you'd have to choose between pretyping a spell and wasting masses of mana or pretyping a skill instead. Its just absurd to say that a mage deserves to lose mana for 'spamming spells like an idiot' when fight skills can be pretyped without that cost, and its hypocritical to sneer at at anyone for pretyping or want to penalize them more for it while you think its ok to use triggers because they work.
Yes of course I don't think mages should lose mana for their target leaving the room when casting armor or any other targeted spell. Not unless every single skill and command in the game is changed so it has in game consequences for a typo or an absent target' praise uses movement if the target leaves the room, flavor wastes a herb if you mispell the name of the container, if you typo on headbutt you fall flat on your face because you are headbutting thin air? That would be interesting but quite pointless IMO. Either the mud should recognize all commands with typos or invalid targets or none. Penalizing mages alone for the typing skills of their players is totally illogical.
Saying that mages were meant to be harder to play because they can't just type 'stun' is ridiculous becasue that is exactly what most do, with aliases. If you also have a trigger you don't need to worry about typoing the target either.
As for Lakespeed, I'm not going to get into an argument about how much link speed affects the game. You think it has no effect, Beam thinks you can't expect to compete on a slow link and should expect to get your butt kicked. I'll let you argue it out with him.
But yes actually I do think that game design should take into account how connection speed and the use of clients interact with the features of the game. My ideal mud would be one where link speed, typing speed, and the type of client you can run have minimal impact on success, especially in competing with other players. The more success depends on the above factors the sloppier the design of the game IMO because all these factors are external to the game and reduce the effect of factors that are intrinsic to the game. I didn't say that was why this change might be made, that just happens to be my own opinion. Other than that I agree with everything Rufus said. I'm not lobbying for my character, I'm supporting a change that will improve the design of the game.
Since when is exploiting the existing features of the game for your own benefit better than wanting it changed to be fairer to everyone? You make it sound as though saying 'this is how things have always been' 'this is how things are right now' is some sort of argument for how things should be. Sorry its not. Learning how to 'deal with it' the way it is and wanting things to stay the same because you've found a way to use it to your benefit is purely self-interested and doesn't somehow mean you are better than people who want things changed.
Ish
I dont use triggers to attack a person when they enter a room. It tends to lead to multikill ive found, and I can never remember to turn them off. Although I could set another trigger to turn class off.
But anyway I don't use them, mainly cuz i dont wait for ppl to enter room, i usually go after them. What i use are aliases. Instead of typing east, then headbutt i got an alias 'eh' that does east headbutt, so if i type eh mob I will go east and headbutt mob. This is really essential even in mob kill I think. Specially if you like to use headbutt flee or warcry flee.
So maybe im at least a little less hypocritical than you thought. Theres one tactic that I was saying works to well in my opinion and the changes rufus was talking about would make them work better.
The tactic is spamming headbutt and waiting for your target to enter. This is usually why i use enter headbutt alias even when im not sure where enemy is. There should be a little bit of lag added to headbutt and other skills to discourage this tactic I think. Or something needs to be done, anyway. My worry was that making it cost no mana, and lowering lag on spells will just make ppl who spam stun target and wait.
But then again, as long as you use alias for enter headbutt etc it seems to beat spammers, but I still think it would be bad if ppl started doing that.
You really seem to have something against triggers, I wasnt condemning anyone, only saying spamming headbutt was a lame tactic.
And um I think its pretty obvious if your lagged your gonna lose, cuz um you wont get any commands in. Guess its just a matter of how lagged your talking. And the only way to even out everyones link would be too be too add a lag to everything and have the mud give less lag to ppl with slower pings.
Geez I don't play quake on the net, cuz of my connection, I dont want to have to suffer lag cuz of someone half way around the world, is lagging. Dont think its feasible really.
As long as you do have the games interests at heart then suggestions are ok. But then again, it sounds like you would like to give everyone the same lag you got just to even things out.
Read my posts closely, I wasnt disagreeing with T-bone if he said pretyping is only way to get in attacks. Pretyping good, spamming bad.
And yes, by my own arguement there is nothing wrong with spamming, if it works for you use it right?
Right its in the game and it works so by my arguement theres nothing wrong with it. Right its not cheating or anythign just lame as hell. Don't see any tantrums being thrown, I just try to argue my points and refute others as well as possible, I also dont assume other ppl are using triggers. Ifn you read my post over and look at my logs closer you will realize this.
And I still liked having to wear your con better. I didnt use leveling gear, I was a true con fighter. Wearing leveling gear IS lame as hell. You dont seem to realize the system didnt reward leveling gear. It rewarded true con fighters. It also rewarded more work on your char.
But thats the past, dont know what that has to do with anything. Seems to me you cant make your arguement very well so you bring up my past arguements and condemn these also?
Stick to the facts it makes your arguement look better, if you actually have one.
You bring up yourself and your situations alot for someone who isnt arguing for their chars benefit.
peace
I also don't like the idea of putting penalties on skills as well for typos or absent targets because it I can't see how it will make things better for everyone to be worrying about making typos or whether their target will still be present by the time their command goes through. As far as I can see that would just make everyone more inclined to use triggers and aliases to increase accuracy in commands and only make things more difficult for people not to use them. It would be consistent with how spells are treated but then inconsistent with how other invalid commands outside combat are treated, and a typo in combat is already going to have worse consequences without setting out to deliberately punish people for typos. And if characters were meant to lose out through typos and lag between entering commands and having them evaluated that seems a little inconsistent with the 'clear' command since people darn well ought to suffer from entering an invalid target and not be allowed to escape the consequences :P If it was up to me I wouldn't be looking to penalize people for typos and not being able to get commands through quickly with the aid of triggers and fast connections, but to increase reliance on knowledge of the game, building a good character, and strategy.
It seems to me pretty obvious that how the game is designed will have a big impact on how important it is to have a fast connection and use a client. For example, if you couldn't use skills and strategies like hiding and going invis or sneaking to get first attack and avoid triggers then combat would depend much more on who has the fastest connection. If hunt gets changed so you can't pick up a trail unless somebody has gone through the room and you can break a trail by flying or swimming or other tactics that will also stop somebody with auto-hunt and a fast link from picking up a trail half way across the mud and whizzing to the target in a few seconds without them having any chance of getting away. And so on, I could give lots of example, I have no idea where you came up with the lagging everybody to even things up. If it was up to me I'd always be asking 'is this going to reward people for knowing the game, or is it just going to benefit somebody with the fastest link and the best programmed client?'and the things which do the former also result in a game with more depth IMO.
Don't see anywhere where I mentioned my own situation. I hardly have the worst connection on the mud, especially when playing from work on a T3. I know lots of players with worse connections, including many in the US, but the fact that you don't need a fast link to be able to enjoy the game relfects the depth in the way this mud is set up in my view. Even just things like the fact that you can turn fight messages off to reduce spam assists people who have slower connections and proves that its not beyond the power of people designing a text mud to give more options to those who aren't sitting on the box or playing on a T1. Which applies to a large % of players here including several immorts.
Ish