Posted by Aginor on 08/16
I have to say that the changes made to cure crit are not really thought
through. Where before create had to leave battle, but could heal for a
lot less mana, now the healing in both schools requires the user to not
be fighting, only the cause version requires more mana and more time for
less effect. All I can see this change doing is weakening cause mages
even further than before. I don't usually complain much about changes
unless they really irritate me, and this one does, because it is aimed
directly cause mages. The further the cause school is degenerated, the
fewer cause mages there will be, and this change almost makes me want to
retire this character. Almost.
Aginor.
From: Ronnie
Friday, August 14, 01:10PM
Plus, it mainly affects the concaise mages. Mainly me and Aginor, because
I think we are the only two left :-PP. With Con cause, we have to rely on
standing toe-to-toe with our hp, curing and doing damage as the battle
continues. With the changes, we have to either do a lot of damage with the
spells we have, or flee and heal. Both of these are not easy, as our damag
comes mainly from stun, headbutt, immolate, and wither. With immolates ski
(skill) lag and mana cost, we usually end up dead before the second one.
chant guh lak vya ex is so watered down now that even 100 mind vs. a 25 m
my worse for wear only lasted 3 rounds. Headbutt is almost totally unrel-
iable, as most fighters have good con and snipers/dex mages have tumble.
The other Damage spells as I see never do enough damage efficiently to win
fights. As for the second option of fleeing/healing, this is nearly
impossibly with low dex, and to add to it the 2 round lag which means we
can just easily be picked off when we do get a lucky flee.
In conclusion, almost every other mage class can get away wounded with the
change, but con cause is more or less killed.
-Ronnie Valthalas
From: Zak
Friday, August 14, 02:32PM
I think it was a good alternative to taking healing away from
mages all togethr. This way you dont have to sit on your butt
all day and regen, but during battles you have to rely on spell
and tactics a lot more instead of being able to boost your
available hps by 75% with heal, which makes mage-kill for fighters
virtually luck-based only. This change gives the fighters a chance
without total ripping out something that makes the game more
enjoyable to play. I know its going to be a tough adjustment
for you :P But just because you can't always win now (or win
most of the time) dont start whinning, think of new tactics.
From: Bleeding
Friday, August 14, 02:48PM
I'm not a con cause, but i agree, this is icky for them. I don't think yo
know what your talking about zak. A con cause -CAN NOT- flee without alot
of luck and a few exits on there side. I hope that this is change to bette
suitthe mage community. I believe that heal istoo powerful right now, but
this is going to make con cause really easy to beat :)
-Bleeding
From: Satan
Friday, August 14, 07:39PM
the changes are good, you mages
relied entirely on that ssspell to win a fight
NOW, you can finally resort to something
like skill1
From: Zak
Friday, August 14, 08:43PM
is it icky for the con mages? they have all those hps to burn. why
should they have an easy time fleeing when they are con AND a mage
. everyone has it in their mind that mages shoudl be great fighters
too. blah. if you're a mage you should have limitations like that and
not having high dex if you want allspells and high mind/con is one
such consequence. Do they have no other options? no-- they ultimately
have more options than any fighter does. like satan said, you can't
rely on that spell to last you through the fight now. Use some more
strategies
From: Lethargio
Friday, August 14, 08:50PM
silly mages...at least they wont be going from almost dead to cuts when
I'm almost dead anymore...
From: Ronnie
Friday, August 14, 10:23PM
No, con mages have just about NOTHING. Like I stated before, con has
shaky (at best) skills to rely on, and hps only last so long when every
one of your opponent's attacks hits, due to high ac and no defensive
skills like dodge, parry, or tumble. Staffs only do (roughly) the same
as most daggers in use, so we cant exactly deal out heavy damage like
fighters can. So we have to fight and cure, and immolate or stun when
possible. Now with cure crit changed, were left with hoping for a lucky
stun.
From: Madison
Friday, August 14, 11:36PM
I have very low dex, but manage to have very good AC, matter of fact
its -100 with the armor spell, so don't tell me you can't at least
take advantage of that.
Madison
From: Tiamat
Saturday, August 15, 01:29AM
Hmm well Considering I am both pkill and 3rd circle
cause I think I'll give the new code change some time before
I'll start complaing about it for now, but from what I've read of
it it doesn't seem to bad to me, time will tell. Kinda funny the
mages complaining about it haven't even fought with it and are
allready bitching. Lets see what the real effect is before getting
all choked up about it.
Tiamat,
From: Ronnie
Saturday, August 15, 09:42AM
One: Con cause mages, as I see, have maybe 3 or 4 possible tactics open
with the spells and skills we have. If you know any, please inform me.
Two: Its not hard to predict that a change from 1 round lag and combat
useable to two round lag and non-combat, would really hurt its value in pk
for a con cause. Rare as we are, we do count.
And Three: Its really starting to worry me how ever major change is added
as like it was just an afterthought in the code updates. Unless your doing
these things off the top of your heads, a post on public opinion would be
nice, listening to the thought out opinions. But I guess listening to whic
groups bitch and whine the most is easier.
From: Yvonne
Saturday, August 15, 11:26AM
I suppose that's my biggest problem with this change-there was no mention
whatsoever that this was a possibility before two days ago. It was my
impression that after the change to dodge a couple of months ago, we were
going to see some information on in-game changes like this before they
actually went in. And I do read the coder board once in a while, to see if
anything new is in the works, and I didn't catch a whiff of this. In any
case, I really do think it would be wise to give us a little bit of
forewarning on things like this.
Yvonne.
From: Rictor
Saturday, August 15, 02:12PM
I like the change =P but I agree, I dont like the "oh by the way"
feel that we got the info
Sir Rictor Belmont
From: Ea!
Saturday, August 15, 03:38PM
This change was thought out, and in fact, was in response to many posts
by players, and has been suggested by players in the past, both in
Q & As and here on the discussion board.
The warning was slightly less than normal (posted Friday morning instead
of Thursday evening) as I was busy at the time I normally post the list
of changes. I'll try to minimize the occurences of this in the future,
and I appoligize for the shorter warning.
We've discussed ways in which we can give longer warnings, but many
of them would make code management harder -- we'll continue to discuss
them, however, and hopefully come up with something.
As for the "Oh, by the way..." aspect of the post, the reason that part
of it was an append rather than part of the original post was that my
message got cut off midway through accidentally. The append was made
within a few minutes of the original post (as soon as I realized it was
missing).
As for the balance issues raised on this board, I'll start by saying the
normal thing: give it a little time, try it out, see what it is like.
Additionally, realize that mages were never meant to be strong healing
characters. When we asked the players what they thought the major
imbalances in the current system (particularly pkill), almost all of them
said that fighters didn't stand a chance against mages. Furthermore,
almost everyone pointed to the ability of mages to heal themselves as
the reason.
-Ea!
From: Aeolus
Saturday, August 15, 04:52PM
I just have a few little comments that may seem obvious but seems
to have been lost throughout all the discussion about balance...
First of all, when a change goes in, we all begin griping when a
previously powerful type of character becomes downgraded... and
tactics that these characters used to use become ineffective.
I just want to make a note that these downgrades seem to be aimed
at BALANCING out all the characters. No one or two types of characters
should be able to kill another type of character with ease.
Also, in the ideal balance, no one character should have to depend
on one skill or one spell in order to win easily in a duel...
If they do, that usually means that the one spell or one skill
is not "in balance" and needs to be relooked/trimmed.
Given, after we do this, we will all have difficulties killing
each other... but then again, what fun is it when somebody can
kill one person in 4-5 rounds consistently? If even with the
different schools of mages, and the different skillstype/stattypes
we had difficulties killing each other really fast, then we'd
have to resort to clever uses of skills/terrain/potions/spells.
This I think is the apex of character balance. Maybe some of you
disagree... but this is what I see as being a balanced world.
Then again, this is easier said than done, and as it is now,
Legendmud is a bush thats being trimmed here and there to round
it out. On the other hand, before we end up trimming down everything,
I would like to see test trials of major changes in spells/skills
before they are implemented. Its always a lot different when you
talk about something than when you actually do it... so maybe if
before implementation, the imms could handpick a dozen or two
characters and place them in another port with the updated code...
Let them duke it out.. and then tell you if they think its fair/unfair
good/notgood.
Anyways.. this is getting long... so I'll just suggest one more thing...
Maybe we can reinstate recall in battles, but have it cost twice the
mana instead during battle. This would give mages a way to "escape"
but then by escaping, they'd also lose 100 mana.. so its a sort of
panic button.... Also changing the spell to a general school spell
would be better too.
Well.. just my umm.. incesant ramblings.. =P
-- Aeolus
From: Rufus
Saturday, August 15, 06:12PM
Okay, just to keep your heads up, and to know that a few things
will be changing., all spells should have at least a 2 round
if not more wait. All skills have a 2 round wait, all spells should
have at least that.
Therefore, all spells which you can cast in 1 round will eventually
bechanged as their current state is considered a BUG and will be fixed.
-Ruf
From: Dryden
Saturday, August 15, 09:32PM
Actually, not all skills have a 2 round wait. backstab is an example I
can think of off the top of my head. I think it's about 50/50 as far as
having either a 1 round or 2 round wait.
From: Aginor
Saturday, August 15, 09:29PM
The reason I think con cause had to rely on the cure crit spell wasnt so
much that the spell itself was greatly imbalanced, but the rest of a con
cause's skills/spells are less useful. Anything we have can be easily
countered by somebody who knows what they are doing. All we had was HP and
cure crit, so essentially we have nothing but HP now, which a good pkiller
can easily drain quickly.
Essentially, con cause is pretty much fated to die with this change, unles
the rest of their skills and abilities get a good deal better to compensat
for it.
Just my opinion, is all
Aginor Chuain Shadowmage
From: Ronnie
Sunday, August 16, 05:55AM
Con cause was never powerful before, and being con cause now is almost
the same as wearing a large "Kill me for Exp" sign in your desc.
From: Nothing
Sunday, August 16, 09:22AM
Do you mean all _combat_ skills and spells Ruf?
From: Rufus
Sunday, August 16, 11:03AM
All skills and spells should have a wait associated with them.
Not just 'combat' skills/spells.
-Ruf
From: Rictor
Sunday, August 16, 06:16PM
Actually at one point Con Cause has been really good, otherwise there
wouldnt be any con cause like you Ronnie in the first place,
I am of course assuming that no one would play a charecter that was
never powerful.
Rictor Belmont
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