Posted by Rufus on 07/27
Okay, I hear a lot of 'mages have had too much stripped from them'...
etc, I'd like to tackle this issue, but I need to know much more than
specifics or whatever work I do will seem like guesswork. Frankly, from
my experience, my mage characters gain exp a lot faster than any of
my others, so maybe I'm missing the point somewhere.
I need specific examples of specific spells to approach bringing all
spells to a useful level, and to balance the different types of
characters.
-Ruf
From: Lethargio
Wednesday, July 22, 07:10PM
well, mages have healing spells that can get them up to full health
real quick, they also have a lot of 'prepping' spells, such as magic
sink, armor, bless, strength, see invis etc etc. which other type of
chars have no access to, I've seen a significant amount of difference in
my fighting just by a simple bless spell...
Other problems were spells such as bind and blind, which renders non-mage
chars pretty much helpless unless, of course they spend a good deal of
rent carrying lots of potions around (cuz they can just use the spell
again). And, if i'm not mistaken, bind right now cannot be prevented
except for that vague comment on 'areas' or something...
From: Zak
Wednesday, July 22, 08:37PM
how about making some of the anti-mage item available out there
more affordable for fighters to carry around. IE: the specs from
hell. for those of us who know what they do. i dont think its
quite worth the huge rent they have on them. I think a better
thing woudl be for the specs to have the spell they give on them
plus an antiblind spell on them or something for the same
ren short they are now. These are the two most hindering spells there
are against a fighter. If A fighter is willing to sacrifice 7 possible
stat points, plus all that rent, i think it should be worth it.
also the vials... another option are just consummed to fast for them
to be worth their rent. make them quaffable 2 or 3 times at least!
Fighters right now are pretty helpless to some of these spells because
to compete we are forced to rent the +dam and +hit items in every
slot we can fit them in, we need big renty weapons like the swords
out there so we can hurt the mages for the short amount of time
we have to kill them before they blind us etc..
From: Drax
Wednesday, July 22, 09:37PM
Also, with fighter eq so rent heavy, carrying around vials ISN'T
really a viable solution for a lot of them.
Drax
From: Rufus
Thursday, July 23, 12:17AM
Maybe my question wasn't clear enough (though I don't mind discussing
other topics)... Some mages have said they feel they've had 'so much
stripped from them already'... to which I ask:
- What spells are useless?
- What spells have been downgraded that shouldn't have been?
etc...
thanks,
-Ruf
From: Yvonne
Thursday, July 23, 12:58AM
This is less a reply to Rufus' questions than to Lethargio's concerns
about bind and blind. -scuffle- Sorry, Rufus. In any case. I was trying
to think of ways to partially offset the advantage that mages have
over non-mages as far as the bind and blind spells go. My idea is
perhaps a piece of eq which has magic sink as a spell effect.
Obviously, this would have to be pretty renty, and it would have to be
a fairly rare piece of eq, otherwise fighters would then have the
advantage over mages, who would waste a lot of mana trying to get through
this sink. Or maybe the sink shouldn't be too good, or something. I'm not
sure, this idea just hit me. And in order to prevent mages from walking
around with constant sinks on, make this eq have minuses to a stat like
spirit, or perc, meaning that either you can walk around with a constant
sink, and lose points in mind or your fight stat trying to make up the
From: Yvonne
Thursday, July 23, 01:11AM
Ok, sorry, I'm very tired, and that didn't really turn out the way I
had wanted. I think it's a valid idea, I'm just too giddy right now
to really explain it without sounding like some sort of inspired
lunatic. If anyone's interested, I might try again later.
Yvonne
From: StrongDruid
Thursday, July 23, 01:22AM
All right, Rufus, maybe it's not so much the spells,
as mob construction done now that renders them useless,
the spells that is :)
I won't mention ID vials, since this has been discussed rather
thoroughly already.
But 2 other examples:
1. Flaming sword: A great weapon, but by giving a large
number of mobs detect illusion it was severily weakened :(
2. Sleep spell More and more mobs wake up almost
immediately after they are slept,
taking away a big part of the advantage given.
Those are just 2 examples, nut I am spammed
by a discussion going on here,
so I will quit now :)
From: Heretic
Thursday, July 23, 05:55AM
I think the flame shourd or flaming shield is pretty much useless for the
amount of mana required and the high words.
Heretic the one and only.
From: North
Thursday, July 23, 06:35AM
Um, how about Etheric void's damage being dropped and
greater summonable mobs being dependant on mind more than hp, which
kinda sucks for con mages =P.
North
From: StrongDruid
Thursday, July 23, 06:47AM
Actually I think that basing hp for greater summoning mobs
on mind makes perfect sense. After all, mind is a mage's - even
a con mage's ;) - proudest asset and there is
no reason to give con mages special
treatment. The spell should be worth
equally much for all mages having it, and spells
are based on mind :) I am pretty sure even con mages
have very high mind, at least mine do :)
As for the etheric void, I completely agree :)
It's another example of a spell that has been
downgraded for no real cause.
From: Sandra
Friday, July 24, 08:17AM
I'm running a bit behind in reading these posts, but after reading
the comments about ethric void, I thought I should posts. For the
mana cost of that spell, it does more damage than it probably
should, imo. Taking into account that it not only takes the victim's
hp, but his mana and move as well. If it were up to me, I'd raise
the mana cost of the spell. =P (Be glad its not up to me ;)
-Sandra
From: Celia
Friday, July 24, 09:33AM
There are only a few cases where draining a mob's mana and
mv would be helpful, surely. The extra cost would usually only
be worth it for pkill.
From: StrongDruid
Friday, July 24, 02:15PM
Sandra, Rufus asked for examples of downgraded spells
and etheric void was one of them.
If responding to an immortal's request by giving
examples he asked for will result in threats
of downgrading them even more, then who will be willing
to post?
From: North
Friday, July 24, 04:56PM
hee hee...but I strongly doubt if Abbot Sugar cares if I drain a little
mana from him. And neither would the HoL guys, or any of the 20K+
indus mobs, or the Dun Mobs...sigh...heck, even pkillers wouldn't
really care about losing a little mana if they can headbutt/choke/kick me
in return. I'd much rather have lots of damage and NO mana drain. =P
North
From: Rufus
Friday, July 24, 05:37PM
We're not threatening.
I'd call it explaining.
Etheric void is probably not as useful a spell in mobkilling,
but it's one of those spells that we intended to not fall into
the 'ordinary' category.
Some spells will be more useful in certain situations. Etheric void
is among them.
-Ruf
From: Ulric
Friday, July 24, 11:11PM
I've commented about Etheric void many times.. its a nice spell
but Its pretty much useless against mobs due to its high mana
cost and against pkillers, it still is an inferior spell in
comparison to the rudh cause damage spells. Create should
have a better damage spell, and with the addition of the
fire effects on eq, the cause mages just get one more advantage
that create mages dont have. Oh Btw... last time I checked flame
shroud is for the most part useless. Boy would it be nice if
create finally got a spell that cause doesnt have thats
character effective like strength, idiocy, blind, unblind, etc..
Thats the reason cause is better. Oh and another thing,
animate object needs to be checked.. allowing a cause mage to
animate certain weapons that do 50 points of damage a round is
big time unbalanced, those are better than demons any day, especially
if you have enough of them.
Ulric who knows first hand that create sucks compared to cause still
From: Maxamillian
Saturday, July 25, 04:19AM
ok.. since I have never played a cause mage, and played 2
3rd circle creates with much enjoyment, I think I can respond
to rufus' request adequately on the create spells.
I agree pretty much on what people say about void.. but
there is one spell that I use that I think is awesome
LIGHTNING BOLT!!.. granted its only used outside but 70 dam
at 100 mind is pretty decent.. at least I think thats how
it works :P
But I want to focus on the other seldom used spells
that I think have been made useless. I remember when
my dex create used to make daggers of ice to handle the mobs
that couldnt detect illusion. I totally think that
the create weapons have been downgraded to pathetic items..
Possibly let the cast level of the spell determine what quality
of weapon is created.. and while were at suggestions.. maybe
even add a create bow? I think it would make mage/archer type
chars more interesting..
I also know that the earthquake and whirlpool spells have never
really been changed.. but I really dont like how they are handled now..
When I come into a room. use all my mana on a quake and cause 40 dam
to me, all 3 of my summons and the target.. and hit NOTHING
else in the room... I think I am left with an unrealistic
result. I understand how poison cloud and wave of nausea have amplified
mana costs for multiple targets.. but earthquake and whirlpool hurt
the caster as well.. unlike poison cloud. I suggest that earthquake
and whirlpool possibly just have a flat cost because you are causing
single event that hurts everyone in the room... and I know
people would immediately think of the deaths of newbies and such
but the fact is that quake and pool hurt newbies the way it is now
and still take mana from you.. i really think thats unfair
and could use some tweaking.
but besides those groups of spells I think that creates have a
pretty balanced set of spells overall.
I know I rambled a bit.. but bear with me.. :)
Maxamillian, creates DONT suck.. you just have to know how to use them
From: Siachet
Saturday, July 25, 06:10AM
Create does at least have a couple of damage spells
(flamestrike and lightning bolt) at the third circle
level, as well as the etheric void, and summoned mobs
which can be powerful in mob killing although more time
consuming to use than the cause strategies (but more fun
IMO).
I had commented before on the fact that vials are not
a great deal of use in fighting when mages have such low
perc, and non-dex mages may not have throw at all. The
create mage equivalents of 3rd cause damage spells are in
the form of vials (fiery and watery death) which in my
experience are virtually never used for this reason.
Likewise there have been comments that ID vials were meant
for emergencies while fighting rather than for getting equip,
but I can't see how something so highly unreliable would be
used for that purpose. The vials do have the advantage of
being transferable, but some means of propelling them based
on magic rather than a fighter skill would help a lot, IMO.
Also, I don't really see why dagger of ice and flaming sword
need to be illusions at all, if create mages are able to make
real objects.
Apart from those things, I think 3rd circle create is pretty
powerful, especially with all the new spells added over the
last few months. Oh, and I can't see any reason why flamestrike
should not set fire to equip if the cause spells do....unless
its just to keep them different.
I really think that its 2nd circle create that needs a bit of
work. Nearly all 2nd circle mage/fighters that I know of are
cause, even though they often have herbal skills which duplicate
some cause spells. Cause has a HUGE range of skills useful in
prepping mobs, causing damage, and raising stats. Create doesn't
really have anything except stun (which cause also has) and
the doppel to use in fighting. While doppels are good, they
don't seem to be enough to get the 2nd circle mages to choose
create.
Sia
From: Siachet
Saturday, July 25, 06:35AM
Oh yes, come to think of it 2nd circle create does have
some very nifty area type spells...but of course these are
not always a good thing if you just want to fight one mob.
Sia
From: Nothing
Saturday, July 25, 08:37AM
I disagree with Ulric about the dancing sword spell. They do
decent damage, yes but you have to go get the weapons to animate.
Yes, they can do upwards of 50 damage a round, but they miss quite
a lot. And they don't have specials, as opposed to greater summoned
angels/titans/demons and elementals. Greater summonings have up
to 7 times more hp than a dancing sword, and the only create that's
timed lasts much longer than a dancing sword's charm.
-Nothing
From: StrongDruid
Saturday, July 25, 12:55PM
Just a small comment:
Flamestrike does set things on fire,
pretty good chance of it too :)
From: Palorn
Saturday, July 25, 02:08PM
why not add a few more items to create object. and flame shroud is so usel
ess because no one wants to loose a slot to statless eq. create could
be a lot mroe powerful if the things we created weren't so wimpy. The
summoned mobs aren't bad, but how about some things we can actually
use. ie: timed stat items (unrentable) , timed items that allow you
to see invis or timed items that protect you from certain spells..etc
. Creates are so weak, we dont even have a good armor spell because if
we want to use it, again we have to rem stat eq! If our spell damage
isn't going to be upgraded much, just give us more useful things that
we can create.
From: Zak
Saturday, July 25, 03:37PM
to go along with Palorn's idea I think create's should be given
a spell called portal (or something similar) where they can
create a portal from where they are to another person on the
mud. Have it so they can't walk through the portal (because they
have to stay on their side and keep it open...) but the other
people in that room can. If you dont want people to be able
to portal from a place just set a property of the room to
no_portal or whatever just like no_recall rooms. I think it
would make playing a create mage lots of fun. Just an idea.
From: Rufus
Saturday, July 25, 08:29PM
Flame shroud/fire shield should have a bit more of a boost next
reboot/crash. It's probably temporary, but I gave the items
a resistance (tough to guess which one, eh?) and a small stat
bonus.
-Ruf
From: SirMichael
Sunday, July 26, 12:35AM
Well, continuing on Zak's idea, i don't think the other person
should be able to come through it, you should have to enter it
but only you can enter the portal, and when you get through maybe
there should be a big lag like a normal fighting 2 round lag,
however long that is, and it might be designated to era only or
maybe even area
-SirMichael
From: StrongDruid
Monday, July 27, 08:42AM
Wouldn't it be a good idea if that shield and shroud
could be given away?
As it is, you can't create them till level 25 at earliest,
and at that time most chars already have
better shield or shroud.
Being able to give them away to newbies
for instance would make them much more fun :)
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