Posted by Pegasus on 03/17
Generally, when people complain about certain in-game issues,
this, -poke subject-, is the only point of view they base their
complaint (or complement, for that matter) upon. This is mainly
directed at the recent posts concerning the mind requirement. Yes,
it does bother me, because it affects me too, but I tend to look
at it from many different angles, not just from my own. Most
people are blind to other people's problems. Think about it, those
who have 3 (thats -three-) 100 stats, still aren't happy because
they aren't immune to every possible skill/spell out there. Hello,
you're not meant to be immune to everything out there, and you
never will be. If you go out of your way to get 3 100 stats (or
even 2), then exepect to be severely hampered in certain areas. If
you're a fighter, then expect to be spell bait. If you're a mage,
then expect to be disadvantaged by fighters. This is by no means a
perfect world, it's impossible to ever have a perfect equilibrium
in a game such as this, where there are so many variables. Instead,
try and think of ways to counter as many disadvantages you have,
and use as many advantages that you have over whoever or whatever
you're fighting. I haven't been playing much lately and so i haven't
been frustrated by all of these issues, so maybe thats why i tend
to see things differently. Either way, you're never going to have
the absolute perfect character, because you'll always have weak
spots, and there's nothing you can do about it. After all of this
complete babble, what i'm trying to say is, consider all of the
possible consequences of what you're suggesting, or all of the
possible reasons for a certain thing (for lack of a better word)
being there.
Peg, he who knows nothing.
From: Dudley
Saturday, March 14, 09:31PM
I am not immune to everything. However, dex mages sure are.
With skill/spell induced paras not lasting long enough to make them
worth while, it becomes a matter of who has the most reliable skill to
use.
Kick and stun are still very reliable, tumble is reliable, and sink also
is highly reliable.
Cure crit undo's damage done rather fast, and any healing ability other
than first aid are actually usable in pk without getting hampered by serious
skill lag.
Bash, headbutt can be tumbled, elbow hurts the doer, warcry can't be
relied upon.
Basically, any skill that's worthwhile can be attained by a dex mage.
I don't think that's balance.
From: Ishtar
Sunday, March 15, 06:21AM
If tumble is so powerful as you say, then fighters with 3 100 stats or clo
close benefit from it as much or more as dex mages.
Dex needs tumble because every skill except kick, to my knowledge,
is actually assessed against con or strength. When these skills land
on a dex mage with low con or strength, they can be devastating,
with dex mages having low hps and a high chance of being stunned
by headbutt, choke, and warcry. Neither choke or warcry can be
tumbled and both are very powerful against dex mages. Fighters not
only get tumble, but with 3 100 stats also have the back up of the
con/str stat comparison when tumble fails.
Statemenst such as 'dex mages can concentrate just on dex and
mind' or dex mages can get every skill thats worthwhile' to not
make much sense to me. It is actually impossible to get 100 dex/
mind and retain use of all 3rd circle words without being so weak
it would be difficult to move without a strength spell.
Ishtar
From: Mandrake
Sunday, March 15, 10:59AM
You're still trying to get dex mages abilities reduced
after the results of the tourny where we witnessed
them being choke stunned every 2nd attempt, spells
eaten by the weakest mages sink and stun hardly being
used as it's either tumbled, fails in casting or
once again eaten by a lesser mage's sink?
They need cure crit cos they're beaten silly and
most other spells aren't worth using.
From: Mandrake
Sunday, March 15, 11:11AM
Oh yeah, why aren't you complaining about cure light?
It gives the 2nd circle mage just as much in the
way of hps from mana just as long as they can get
away long enough to use it (and they usually do).
Then there's glowing roots, they're even more
value for the mana.. Then there's spam druids
with their poultices, and dopples etc who can
tank for you! Just become a mage and shut up :P
From: Lagmonster
Sunday, March 15, 12:09PM
Can't say much about the tourney since i missed everything
but I do know that fighter chars didn't go too far.
It could be, of course, that all the fighter pkillers were of
lesser ability than the mages, but even then, it is worthy to
note that fighter chars, when put up against a mage char, rarely
won.
Of course, the design of the tourney was such that a cause mage
with a poisoned weapon could win against any fighter, but it did
reflect some problems we have over on port 9999.
If, of course, a fighter char had gone to the semi or finals, i'd
be happy to shut up and learn, but since that's not the case, i'll
just push for more balance :P
From: Sandra
Sunday, March 15, 01:49PM
For the record, Dede, Gareth and Jander, those are all fighters I think,
made it thru at least 2 fights, and against mages. Gareth lost to
Terrizano, who I believe had all of 7hp left after that fight. So, imo
I would say that fighters did just fine in the tourney.
Btw, Lagmonster, aren't you a fighter? ;)
From: Arsene
Sunday, March 15, 06:58PM
but it was a cause mage tourney because of the setup and victory
conditions. As for the statements abou the mind req, I made them
because the REASON IT WAS INTRODUCED WAS TO COUNTER people with
3 100 stats(along with reduced paras), and THE MIND REQ
FAILED TO DO THAT, and now we have stiffnecked imms who refuse
to remove a pointless facet of gameplay, nor explain why it
stays, all it does is penalize people who dont amass those stats,
and nothing is gained at all from 25 mind except I think I got
listen back. I wasnt directing the question to balance, but
to something that was imped, failed to do its job, hampers people
it was not put in to effect, and now is kept because of
STUBBORNESS.
From: Lagmonster
Sunday, March 15, 11:57PM
I think half the reason why fighters did as well as they did is cuz
it was a very small map, with truly easy access to cure blind.
On top of that, there were some other luck factors that doesnt usually
happen in 9999 pk, like ppl not knowing where a door is, for example.
Also, in a tourney, ppl seem to refrain from using 'cheap' tactics,
as one could have easily bound a fighter and hit/fled, or bound a fighter
and poisoned him to death, bound meditate, and whatnot.
As far as mind req goes, i wouldn't mind it as much if idiocy did only
-5 mind. Being able to knock off 2 weapon skills in one blow is rather
severe, and unless the wielder is using a con weapon, they can eliminate
another set of attacks using weaken/clumsy.
But i guess us fighters will have to deal with it like we would any other
spells, by renting out.
Assuming we don't get bound.
Lagmonster
From: Sandra
Monday, March 16, 12:32AM
Ask Bacchanal about bind and encumbering during the tourney. ;)
All tactics were legal, most were used. Including bind and encumber.
Remember Bacchanal hit/fleeing Ruby because Ruby couldn't move? Or
Rictor doing the same to Bacchanal because Bacchanal bound himself?
There was a disadvantage of not knowing the area well, but then again
that helps as well as hinders.
From: North
Monday, March 16, 01:20AM
hey Arsene, great argument. It sounds like you really want them to
suceed in countering people with 3 100s...so would you object to
having them raise the mind requirement instead of lowering it? I mean
that might solve the problem rather nicely. Oh well.
North
From: LadyAce
Monday, March 16, 10:44AM
After the tourney, I thought a lot about how things had gone. I came to
the following conclusion:
It's not that mages are too powerful, it's that weak mages are too
powerful. Why are they too powerful? Because they have more options
and tactics available to them. What's the solution? Some cutbacks on
the power of mages may be necessary, but a better solution seems to me
to be 'harmonizing up' -- i.e. giving fighters more interesting options
and tactics. I don't want to replicate mage powers in the fighting trees,
but I'd love to see new suggestions for making fighters more flexible.
Some of the skills we have planned for fighters will come in with trees,
and although I know this makes you all groan, there's a level where the
changes simply can't happen now, and everyone has to wait.
-LadyAce
From: Mandrake
Monday, March 16, 03:07PM
I think Arsene has a point about the mind req, not
about it failing to stop one reaching 100 in 3
stats but that idiocy drops you 2 weapon proficiencies
rather than just 1. Perhaps expert should require
25 mind and advanced 15? (Although I'd rather
expert required 20, same as hunt).
From: Mandrake
Monday, March 16, 03:21PM
Hmm, make that 20 mind 20 or 30 perc for expert,
that'd fix the 100 in all stats, no need for
pre-req's in lesser weapon proficiencies.
From: Lagmonster
Monday, March 16, 06:30PM
Sheesh, you guys talk as if there is a real benefit to having
three 100 stats. With any reasonable requirement chars can still
opt for 100 90 90 or 100 100 80, or whatever.
Even then, the basic premise of the char is the same: have stats that
are going to be higher than somebody elses.
This kind of a char really isn't too much of a hindrance to snipers
and mages, because the lack of perception and mind effectively
nullifies whatever advantages they might have, and this is mostly
because fighters can only rely on one stat at a time for combat
skills, so it's not as if we can have a super kick that incorporates
damroll into our kicks and stuff.
Against other fighters, this 3 100 stat char might pose a problem, but
in all seriousness, attaining 3 100 stats isn't all that hard, and if
you can't, there are ways to make your fighter char effective by either
boosting hps or carrying spam eq (3 100 stat chars are VERY renty).
If the mind req is raised, or some silly other req is added, i, and probab
ly most other ppl interested in generating a decent pk char, will simply
opt to make a spell caster of some sort.
I've personally given up clanning pure fighters at this point, because
it is way too hard for fighters to obtain their eq (if anyone looked at
Dudley's eq set, they'll understand), combat various tactics (can't carry
spam eq, can't even carry a vial without having to rely on prestige), etc.
Had this been the ages where looting and junking of entire corpses was
still rampant, i doubt i would have even clanned Dudley.
Lagmonster
From: Arsene
Monday, March 16, 09:56PM
the problem with the mind req is that it is staying even though
it failed to counter what it was supposed to , north, and now
its just a hindrance to others, and yeah ladyace, in your naive way
you address the problem, MAGES HAVE ALL THE FIGHT SKILLS in the
same way fighters do, nothing is purely in the realm of the fighter
and some things are purely mage, or VERY DIFFICULT to replicate
Dip isnt some god, its easy to counter those effects as a mage,
its just that very few are heads up enough to do it , and most
of them dont fight. as for we cant make changes now, thats
so hypocritical, the mind req was a very late change, so removing
it isnt a change its eliminating a late, bad one. Yeah, we've
heard all this about skill trees for what, 3 years, and the same
classless system giving mages the benefits of both worlds
remains. thats why balance isnt achieved here, because people
fail to see the problems of a classless mud, once damage and paras
were going to fighters(granted fights were not lasting long,
but Destiny did well enough as a mage with sticking stuns) the
first balanced system came out where blind WAS NOT A MAJOR
WEAPON. There hasnt been a famed pkiller here who has not
either been a mutant, a high hp dex monster, used ID, or
preyed on people with blind on a regular basis.
Now that all fighter types are being given advantages, all you
are doing is expanding the abilities of mages to differ
fight types instead of restricting these skills to fighters
to achieve balance away from quick fights or blind.
Reductions of para, the new mass healing, tumble not having enough
of a perc req(needs to be 50 to hinder 3rd circle mages),
ac being too easy to get all around high for any fighter type,
lessened paras(allowing mages to just flee/spam on perc for
dex, heal and come back to fight), new skills that mages can access,
the mind req(denying fight skills to fighters, not touching a mage
whom idiocy doesnt hinder that much(maybe idiocy sent everyone
to 10 mind for a tick?) has just given SMART mages access to
devastating attacks(the high ones they couldnt access(super damage on
lengthy paras are now taken away from fighter and mages both)
and et al has just exacerbated the problem of a classless mud.
that you want to imp these fixes that under the mythical trees might
work are mostly anti-straight fighter.
ALL you have now are mages who have as few weaknesses as a fighter
(everyone has and will have them) that have the ability to
access skills that benefit them as much as a fighter, and
the ability to cripple a fighter, run heal, and then come back
and fight an even damage battle where if you are lucky enough
to be ahead all they have to do is run heal.
Most of my fights now with mages revolve around this,
either they are dex to tumble,have ac, kick and choke, and dodge, and crip
ple and stat boost spells, OR are str with tumble and enough mind
and spam gear to run heal while they bash and outdamage all but str
fighters whom they equal(70 dex and 100 dex differ so little in
to hit once hit roll items factor in it makes no difference,
or are create mages who come into a fight with twice their hp total
in inventory in the form of roots.
What should be seen are if you have spells, you are on a plane distinct-
ly below fighters in combat skills/proficiencies, and to
beat them You have to rely on high damage spells in combat
not hit/flee/heal where all ytou have to do is not get too
far behind. Then you could see balance emerge through
straight fighters, snipers, mages , and fighter mages being
able to have a tool against everyone, but being better
off against some vs others, instead of now
where fighter mages use fight skills as well as a fighter, and
run heal and come back and sac a little damage edge in a fight
to wear down a fighter through repeated heals.
Removing these crippling spells like the mind req that
do NOTHING bet exacerbate the problems of a classless system
withhold them till trees where maybe the work.
From: Rufus
Monday, March 16, 11:16PM
The mind stat req for those skills was not intended to STOP 3 100
stat characters. It did make them more difficult, but not impossible.
That was never the intention.
The mind req's for the fight skills were put in place more for a
logical reason than anything else, being able to attack with the
higest proficiency with a weapon is at least part intellect.
I know, the argument goes, 'well you have to see things coming at
you... you need be able to spot your strike, etc...' so why don't
we make perc a req too? Frankly, I don't know at this point, but
the mind req seems enough to accomplish our original goal of making
the skill a little more robust in its implementation.
And yes, when 'skill trees' comes in, it will be highly unlikely that
mage characters will have access to many of the fight skills, especially
the higher end ones. Since we are, however, in development, gradual
changes such as this will come into the game and may cause a couple
slight imbalances now and again. We are, however, not going to go
out of our way and out of the way of our goal entirely to re-balance
the system at every twist and turn, though it is my personal feeling
that the mind req hardly at all unbalances the game.
And unfortunately, you're going to have to deal with the gradual changes,
unless you'd rather opt for legend to be taken offline until skilltrees
can be fully implemented. Working on two separate code bases for the
same thing is unwieldy and very difficult, time consuming, and frankly,
a total and utter pain in the ass. The changes will slip in here, and
we'll deal with them as best we can.
-Ruf
From: Rufus
Monday, March 16, 11:24PM
And on the perception thing, Ea! and I, who primarily designed the
new fight system based off of Gail's work to the old system (basically,
it's been entirely rewritten from scratch), felt it best to apply
perception to a more defensive stat, rather than offensive, hence the
advantages of high perception to AC, dodge, tumble, etc... It is
more evident and more prominent in a defensive role, so we added it
there instead of querying yet another variable in the attack formulas
(though high perception does give a slight hitroll bonus).
That is primarily why you don't find a perc req in the weapon
proficiency skills. The nature of the combat system, as designed, is
that perc is naturally more defensive than offensive when related to
hand to hand combat.
-Ruf
From: Arsene
Tuesday, March 17, 12:19AM
The reason given was to stop amassing of stats, and it was
not imped for logical reasons, unless you want to say
immorts flat out lied the day it was introduced, because that
was the reason given, nothing at all about it being logical.
-another thing about logical and changes recently, one remark I
remember from a fairly invovled imm at the time was that
if we based it all on logic everything woud be dex, and so these
changes went in, logic has little to do with it, mainly an excuse
now.
From: Mandrake
Tuesday, March 17, 07:44AM
I suggested it a while ago but how bout giving 3rd
circle mages only basic weapon proficiency, 2nd
circle advanced and only true fighters expert?
It'd require a lot of adjustment to spells and
stuff but seem the way to go.. Stun could then
perhaps be adjusted to 1 round lag for the
purpose of setting up for other spells, escape
or other such things since their weapon damage
wouldn't be so great.. All fight skills should
also be based on more than 1 stat for the attacker
to balance that side of it out..
From: Ea!
Tuesday, March 17, 09:29AM
The reason given for the mind req. was both for making it harder to
get 3 100 stats and for logic reasons.
As for it "failing" -- all this argument convinces me is that it
was a mistake to lower the requirement down to 25 from 30
where it originally was.
-Ea!
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