Posted by Arsene on 03/09
Bind isnt too bad , with a few modifications, seems to enable too
much to happen to you. Once you are bound, you can be blinded,
idiocied, rem armored, limned, clumsied, weakened, and still
give the mage enough time ot choke/flee/heal warc/flee/heal
spell dam/flee/heal or stun/flee/heal. Perhaps if the duration
were lowered, a mind blank accompany the spell, or require
the spell caster to remain in the room, cause bind ot vanish
on a para, or a big dam spell. right now it seems to last
two full ticks, waaaayyyy too long.
From: Kaige
Wednesday, February 25, 10:02AM
The spell only prevents you from leaving the room. There's plenty of time
to take defensive actions like dispel magic if you can cast it, setting
up magic sink likewise, taking offensive actions against the caster if
they're in the room, which they'd have to be to do most of the things
you listed, shoot at them if they're not in the same room with either
a gun or a bow.
True it's a definite disadvantage to get caught and bound, however, it's
something that can be prepared against if you remember it can happen
to you.
-Kaige
From: Arsene
Wednesday, February 25, 10:48AM
okay kaige so you are telling us a few things here, one fighters
have to sack 30 stat points to mages in fights, and the ability
to carry a dam roll horn, and some other items, and carry 4 or 5
dispel magic potions burdening rent and weight. basically
to counter bind you have to carry a dispel magic potion in you rhand becau
because we cant fumble in our inventory for a potion we
know we have(dumb). we already have added 15 useless mind stat
points to avoid idiocy once bound, and there is NO chance to kill
a mage who has you bound and blind unless you have potion
in inventory, even with moderately low dex, a mage can attack flee
and heal in oh say 20 seconds while you sit there
unable to see move, etc...
and the fail chances dont seem to be chances at all , ive had
bind succeed 8 of 8 times. Its enough that you have to rent off
a cuase mages spell affects 4 or 5 times a fight, while giving
them 30 ac or so plus base(as much as yours) at least two fight
skills maybe three as good as yours, and the mind req stat points
that pull your abilities down, cause mages ability to str and gain
10, and their ability to take 20 more off you when bound, no to
mention move your ac up 60. basically bind allows a cause mage
too much once hes established it, at very little mana cost
or risk to self. toning it down a little by requiring the caster
to stay in the room with you, or not be able to cast it on someone
blind, or not be able to cast further spells doesnt seem to ask too much.
Its sad enough the stats mages get free now without depriving
fighters of two hernes just to be able ot not fear bind
From: Arsene
Wednesday, February 25, 10:59AM
make that fear bind because its automatic death.
From: Dudley
Wednesday, February 25, 11:10AM
Bind is pretty darn cheap (last i checked, what was it, 10 pts) for the
bang you get. If a mage was to be anal, he could easily accomplish what a
rsene said, and say even if we had a bubbly in hand, i think once bound, t
they have enough time to bind/blind until we run out of potions, since
we can only carry so many (i personally can't carry any without relying
on prestige.. those things are way too renty). I know the renting out
thing is supposed to be reconsidered, but taking out that 'feature'
(through bind) is a major disadvantage to fighters, unless they are bound
at an inn (happened to me). It also sucks that bind lasts even if the
spell caster leaves the room, or (i think) leaves the game. Basically, on
ce bound, i not only have to fend off the caster, but also everyone else
that will take advantage of the fact that i can't flee.
I think we need to adjust the duration and the effects of bind,
much like a wall of wind, where the caster leaving the room breaks the
spell, have it become an agg spell (hate being bound inviso), have it
last not as long, and have the bind work like a sink when cast on us.
(you can ignore the last one :P)
Dudley
From: Sandra
Wednesday, February 25, 11:48AM
I'm sorry, but I can't see why there is even an argument about
mage stats vs fighter's stats, especially when there are fighters
out there with 3 100's. With that set up, you can scream until
you're blue in the face that a mage has better stats, but I'll
guarantee they don't have 3 100's. All I've seen in these posts
lately is that fighters want to be basically the same as mages AND
have those 3 100's. Each char type has a disadvantage, be it their
weak because they're a dex or con mage, they can't flee because they
have low dex, they're headbutt bait because they're dex/str, and
they're idiocy bait because they chose the 3 100's. You can't have
it all folks. There is no PERFECT char type anymore, they're all even.
They all have their pluses, and their minues, and what I DO suggest
is that you work to figure out their weakenesses instead of complaining
that their too powerful because of one thing, and work on that weakness,
not work backwards.
Now, people may say that I don't know what I'm talking about, and for
some things, that may be true. But, I've probably got more chars than
Fionn ever thought about, and have fought with many different types
of stat setups, and each type I have fights well in their own way. But
I also don't expect them to be superchars and immune to everything.
-Sandra, the rambling immortal
From: Arsene
Wednesday, February 25, 12:07PM
and you say you take suggestions seriously.
From: Arsene
Wednesday, February 25, 12:14PM
When you get upset because people remark imms dont listen, imms treat
your suggestions like trash it comes from appends like you just made,
everyone has weaknesses, even me, though few people think enough to take a
dvantage of them. Im not asking to be made a god, but when you come up ag
attack that requires you to seriously hamper yourself, and affects fully h
alf of the pk enabled world(if half are non mages) in a serious way.
I dont have 1 100, much less 3 100s, and I made an observation about a tac
that requires me to give up a hold slot, invest in 2-3k rent of a non boug
ht/found potion that I cant make because of origin or be left helpless to
every cause mage out there who can blind and bind me. And I still happen
think mages, especially causes have too many advantages, and judging by yo
ur reaction youd think Id asked to be given some kind of autoslay power.
From: Sandra
Wednesday, February 25, 01:57PM
First off, I do take suggestions seriously. My append was in response to
the fact that all I've seen is that people want to be able to counter
every attack that's delivered to them. What I see is that you'd like
a str fighter's damroll, a sniper's hitroll and dodging abilities, a mages
spells, and a con fighter's hp/stunning attacks. I don't think I'm being
rude in saying that you can't have it all. My post wasn't directed at JUST
you, though you seem to think it was. I believe I even made reference to
recent posts, not YOUR post. So, who's the one jumping the gun?
From: Arsene
Wednesday, February 25, 03:50PM
then make your own post, and this spell wasnt imped before for good reason
and it wouldnt hurt to tone it down, or junk it, its way to overpowerful
From: Dudley
Wednesday, February 25, 05:00PM
I agree that every char has advantages and disadvantages, but since this a
aint a perfect world, some chars tend to have way more disadvantages while
not having many skills to exploit others.
Mages and snipers, regardless of the opponent's stat setup, will always
have things to rely on, such as blind or snipe, or simple damage spells.
For the fighter, that is not always the case, as most fighter chars will
have 2 quite high stats and one relatively high stat to make them impervio
us to another fighters attacks. So, the chars may have their own set of d
disadvantages, but not all have skills that can exploit them,
like mages can. And mages have spells that can rip up the strategies most
effective against mages--they can counter everything that's thrown to
them, other than a snipe, perhaps.
And about having three 100 stats--a LOT was sacrificed to get
that setup, and there are HUGE disadvantages that comes with
the nifty score screen. It's bascially not much more than
having 100str/con and decent dex, and even with that you are
not guaranteed a skill against somebody that you can exploit.
From: Dudley
Wednesday, February 25, 05:06PM
Well, all i ask is that blind and bind not last that long.
No fighter skills (maybe a disorient, if i ever see one in pk)
come close to the duration of those spells, and they really should
be combat spells, with relatively less a duration and power.
Both spells seems ridiculous to last 3-4 ticks, and taking into
account ticks right after casting, they should probably last
2 ticks max, and blindness be curable via vials in inventory.
And those potions are really renty--maybe 1/10th or 1/2 at least
would make them more affordable, since us dumb fightertypes
can not even procure them without help.
From: Aeolus
Wednesday, February 25, 05:03PM
Personally.. I agree with arsene that this spell, for its man
mana cost is waaaay to powerful... but I'll reflect on whats
been said so far....
First off.. yeah... we all have weaknessess and just as
Sandra said, we should take weaknessess and strength of
various characters into account.
Yet.. the thing is... such weaknessess/and strengths of
a char should intrinsically add up so that each character
is intrinsically the same in quality.
I know that it is harder to maintain a mage than
it is a fighter.. but following the previous arguments
heard from some imms, I can also argue that the
mages chose such a stat "disability" to be able
to do things out of the ordinary (cast spells).
Likewise, fighters choose to be weaker in
mind and other stats to fight better.
Anyways.. getting back to the question of bind.
I find that the bind spells basically turns
a pkilling character into a mob. Like
a HOL mob that just stands there and doesn't
hunt you down. Such a disability to move
allows a mage character "n times" the amount
of setup time... letting them do things
which normally wouldn't be seen in pkill
since duels usually are short and sweet.
I refer here to spells such as clumsy,
weaken, weaken armor... the "prep spells."
okay.. so what I said previously is obvious,
mages can do more now....
Going back to the question of balance however,
This ability to "prep" a character highlights
mage type qualities and abilities (spells).
Thus, intrinsically, a mage, since he/she
can now do "Everything" that they are
capable of doing, would "excel"
and have an advantage in that battle.
This offsets the intrinsic balance of
fighter types vs mage types.
Remember.. its "intrinsic balance"...
or the quality of a char type... not
relative balance (as in mages have 40 spells...
fighters have less skills to do those things
that mages can.. etc etc etc).
Now thats at the current state of what
bind really does. And YES a non-mage
character can counter this effect...
but we all forget that the only way
to do so is to dispell.. and the only
way for a non-mage to dispell is to quaff
a dispell spell. and the only
way a non-mage can get that is to brew it
BUT only a few hometowns allow characters
to actually brew this concoction.
Thus here we have balanced the quality of
chars from the hometowns that can brew with
the mages, but not other hometowns.
As this append is getting long.. I shall continue
with what I believe could be feasible solutions
on another append....
From: Aeolus
Wednesday, February 25, 05:20PM
Okay... so let me highlight the main problems of bind...
First off.. it binds a character for far longer of a
time than should be necessary... (about 2 ticks).
Secondly, the bind spell seems to have a
VERY high chance of success. Stuns were like this
but now we have almost resolved the problem with stuns...
Anyways.. perhaps a reconsideration of this spell
is due....
Of course, what I've said above and on the previous
append are my opinions.. but I tried to
reach the conclusion that bind is overpowering
by trying to follow some logical path.
I hope the imms will try to understand why
us characters are disgruntled....
Currently, bind is like the stun spell as it was before
And that was fixed.. shouldn't this?
-- My couple cents worth
Aeolus
From: Rufus
Wednesday, February 25, 06:22PM
next time we update the code bind will be of a shorter and random
duration, not a fixed one (it's already short, so don't expect it
too much shorter). Also the caster will lose sneaking and invis
capabilities after casting the spell (ie they will fade into
existence).
And please, Arsene, before you go declaring why or why not a spell
was coded or wasn't coded before, find out before you make a complete
fool of yourself. No one had ever coded it, it wasn't that it was
too powerful. There were design considerations that no one ever
bothered with.
I almost didn't change anything because of those remarks.
-Ruf
From: Rufus
Wednesday, February 25, 06:27PM
And I think the next time I hear 'immortals never listen' I'm
not going to, and you can go on complaining about whatever,
just don't bother trying to ask me to fix it.
It gets REAL old after a while.
-Ruf
From: Aeolus
Wednesday, February 25, 08:52PM
Thanks rufus:)
-- Aeolus
From: Dudley
Wednesday, February 25, 10:22PM
kewl, them fading into existence will help :)
From: Arsene
Thursday, February 26, 05:05AM
I didnt say you didnt listen, but its rare to hear that anything is being
done, and a certain append to the post here was VERY uncalled
for in tone, and thanks for working on it, but I was very
unhappy about the tone of that append, totally uncalled for.
From: Mandrake
Thursday, February 26, 05:27AM
Cool, well.. Now that's fixed, Arsene killed me the
duel before that with blinding arrows, (this was
brought up when i used bind the following fight)
I'm just wondering whether blinding arrows may be
altered in the future as once again I'm considering
perma cos these things are just so damn powerful..
Basically it means fighting blind the whole
fight with autorush on, not being able to cast
offensive spells as you're likely to just miss
and waste all your mana, which is also what happens
if you bother to cure blind.
Mmm, anyways.. I gotta have a few more fights
with such fighters before I can determine whether
it's perma time once again.
From: Primo
Thursday, February 26, 07:27AM
Acutally I thought the tone Rufus used was exactly what was needed.
You've done everything but accuse him of sitting on his lazy ass and
not doing things just to spite you. I'd personally cheer him if next
time he did just the opposite of what you wanted.
From: Celia
Thursday, February 26, 09:56AM
They do listen, there was a summary here a while ago of what
had been discussed and how it was/is being addressed.
It should have been left up.
Celia
From: Kinch
Thursday, February 26, 10:06AM
Well said, Kaige, Sandra, Rufus, Primo and Celia.
I don't buy into these kind of things usually, but in
general, all I can add is "get a life".
Oh..and "take a good, long, hard look at yourself."
I feel better now...
Kinch "where's the silent majority when you need them?"
From: Firefly
Thursday, February 26, 06:16PM
alas I'm not pkiller, but i can't really see your problem. Sure you can
get bound but you can still defend yourself with headbutt/bash/stuff
since mages can't cast spells while lying down...and, most mages can't fle
flee (even). and again, starting out with saying you guys never listen nev
never (even again) got anyone anywhere.
-Firefly
From: Dudley
Thursday, February 26, 07:38PM
It was quite hard to defend yourself after being bound and if
the mages simply opt to prep/flee. And don't know where you got
the idea that mages can't flee. I personally had a 20dex str/con
fighter that could flee reliably enough to employ hit/run if necessary.
Regarding the note about mages not being able to cast anything while
sitting down: last i checked, fighters can't do anything while lying
down either.
From: Rufus
Thursday, February 26, 07:55PM
Like tone answered with like tone, Arsene. Generally when someone
suggests something you pipe in with such a message within the first
three or four posts.
Frankly, I'm sick of it.
-Ruf
From: Arsene
Friday, February 27, 10:39AM
maybe if more feedback, or definite answers came, or even toleration of co
nversation on chat about certain topics werent so conferenced, or
negatively jumped on, Id tone down a bit, but every time we bring up a subject, its
pushed to a conference, labeled whining, ignored, or you get yelled at by
No one says we are working on it, we have such and such a problem with
this, cant code this right yet, or something. The thing lately Ive been most
vehement about is the skillwipe, or whatever. SOm epeople have been push
and NEEDING one for a lon gtime, and some havent even gotten a reply or
consideration, and also th emind req, and several fight system issues that get
labeled whining so fast you cant make a case, and if its being worked to
be changed, no one says we are working on a solution. And my posts reflect
that dislike of ho wsuggestions in ohter forums are taken from, and
from others.
From: Bodhi
Friday, February 27, 11:23AM
Let me summarize: snipers can shoot blinding arrows every fightround.
mages can cure blind every 2 round. Mages can blind snipers.
mages can bind snipers, and mages can flee (I personally dont know a
good pkill mage with less then 60 dex).
So all in all it mostly comes down to if the mage binds the sniper first
or if the sniper blinds the mage first. The mage could also try to blind
the sniper first but if the sniper knows whats hes doing that wont be a
problem. All kinds of chars who are not cause mages or snipers are easy.
Atleast in my experience.
So since snipers suggest that bind be made less 'powerfull' I would sugges
that shoot be reduced to every 2. round :)
Then we can talk business -grin-
Bodhi Campeador [Knight of Legend]
-Read the append by Mandrake. (I wont do that, just die a bit more)
-Mayby I should start dueling Arsene :)
From: Eol
Tuesday, March 03, 01:26PM
bows lag more than a fight round, and there is lag on reload.
yeah, if you dont blind them most can dispel magic if they use
thier heads, but bind and blind is auto kill
From: Nomad
Monday, March 09, 09:34AM
I thought I'd mention in this particular case, that bind is NOT too
powerful.. The major disadvantage to hit/run nowadays, is that
usually the first set of attacks after a stun spell do not wake
the target up, but they wake up at the end of the round, which gives
them more than enough time to use a special. Bash is particularly
powerful, it leaves me on the ground for two rounds, and with
a lot of hitroll/damroll, you can leave a mage severely hurting.
It has come to my attention that even when idiocied to be at below
25 mind, str fighters can still do insane amounts of damage to bashed
targets, even when bound/blind/weakened/clumsied ... And there are
plenty of ways around bind, and the penalties of a failed bind hurt :P
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