Trees, weapons and other new stuff

Posted by Shemp on 12/29/96

I just have a few comments. At first when all weapons were downgraded (if thats the word for it) I hated it. But now, I actually kinda like that they all do the same damage - it allows you to interchagne them without a effect on the damage you do. I have heard that teh fight system is being changed, and I was wondered how so? more attacks *chuckle*or less? Also, upon seeing the projected HP/mana I couldnt help but feel they were a little low for the low end (20 con to 50 con) For a dex or str fighter to be a mage, they would have virtually NO hitpoints. Perhaps a curve at the bottom.

Hunt:
As far as hunt going away, yeah it will make pk harder, but thats it. Well, thats it for all of us who know most of the old parts of the mud like the back of our hands. I can type myself from the Tara in to the agrabah in before my screen can catch up - and likewise from london in to zanzibar to bengal. But, for newbies who have no clue how to get to sanfran *comf* The tracks idea does sound cool though. We'll see.

Which brings me to another point - play test:
This going to be a period where waht we do is erased, rolled back, etc so that we can do whatever and not have it count? Although I personally dont like this, its probaby a good idea. I was hoping that you could leave pk on for this - with deadths not mattering we could get a real feal for how it will work under trees. Then maybe a no-PK 2 week period for all to adjust and get skills learned and practiced up. Hmm...

Ok, how about a few specifics:
Are there goign to be high secondary pre-reqs? I hope not if we are going to have high primary stats, ie 60 con to headbutt, then say 40 dex? Are spells like weaken, clumsy going to take immediate effect, or take several ticks to take effect (prolly wearing off before taking full effect) This IMHO suck for pk.

If they are not to, what about a spell, scroll, vial (opium), skill that causes minus 10 con?? With 2/3s of the mud prepign con mages/snipers for trees - this is a real issue i think.

Ok - unuff ramblings. Please append and thoughts.

Shemp

From: Haul Tuesday, December 10, 02:09AM

spells taking effect immediately should, imho, be similar to eq-spam rate, as they are similarly magical...lose 1 dex at a time in case of clumsy, and start heading down...this could make spells even more powerful than they are now, since they may last longer this way...or have spell level determine the rate in which stats get modified on the victim

Hunt for newbies is exactly why hunt should not be here--had we not had hunt in the first place, we would not bitch about its going away and stuff, and nothing would be a problem for true newbies who never had it to enjoy it.

Having a -con spell sounds very reasonable to me, but we'll probably need -perc/-spi spells as well if we are going to count on those stats playing a prominent role as well. It is not uncommon for dex fighters to equip themselves with 110 dex, and maybe same should be done for con warriors, as well as snipers.

Blind, i think, should be downgraded to work in stages as well. Giving similar effects to 'infra-vison' at early and late stage, or even by starting the effect you get when you are in a 'darker' room, those where you can see mobs but not the specific eq you are wearing. As of now, with the plans to have rent-dispel removed, and with the possibility to have boats portagable, chant meue lak vant ex will become even more powerful, and will seriously disadvantage a non- cause mage, or those who chose not to carry a cure-blind potion sacrificing +5 potential stat in fear of blindness.

As far as pk being allowed in the testing period goes, i think it'll be too painful and tedious unless you could code no-looting as well somehow. I mean (scratch that) never mind, pkill during the test period might be a good idea, and i think yet another skillwipe after the testing period might be good as well if players opt to do so after testing their chars out. Not everyone has the luxury of multiple, high-level characters that they can use to explore and learn the mud, so such maybe appropriate.

Haul

From: Ptah Tuesday, December 10, 04:05PM

I'm going to try to respond point by point real quick...

- Shemp asked how the fight system was changing--the best descriptions are in the FAQ on skill trees (on the web page and on the FTP site) and in a recent issue of the LT (likewise).

- people feeling that the projected HPs/mana were low--most of this is an illusion resulting from people levelling up with high stats from day one. Everyone has gotten used to having very high values for these, and the fact is that the new system implies a reinterpretation of what the value of a single hit point is; they won't necessarily be comparable in any meaningful way to what people have now.

- newbies who have no clue how to get to San Francisco ought to learn a way, not get told one mob that is over there and hunt to it. :P For that matter, if a newbie can hunt TO Frisco, something is really out of whack in hunt... :)

- play test period was currently planned to be a no-pk period, but the points given arguing for "double" testing are well-taken. So we'll see when the time comes. :)

- spells affecting stats will take immediate effect.

- spells exist internally already for raising and lowering all six stats. I don't know what plans may exist to make all of these chantable.

- making blind work in stages would be nice, but not in this pass, sorry. :) I agree that blindness is currently an extremely powerful tool, and it may be that a necessary intermediate step until we can rectify the balance issues would be to remove it while we find a way to fix it. We don't have time to rewrite it completely before trees go in, so we'll see how it does with all the other changes, and address it once we know what impact it has.

-Ptah

From: Gho Thursday, December 12, 02:38AM

Don't know if you were referring to my message there about people feeling the projectect hp's/mana were low but basically i suggested 400-800 hp's IF sancs were taken out of the game (which i hope they will be) I'd be happy with 100 con only having 400 hp's, i just hope that scale would start at say 200 so those with 50 con would have around 300 hp's otherwise everyone's gonna feel they should go con no matter how balanced it really is.

From: Shemp Friday, December 13, 10:04AM

That is exactly how I feel Gho.

And, I too would like to see sancs removed from the game, or at least thier functionality changed somewhat. Perhaps they could could rent for 5000 and be as simple as +150 HP, you ould wear 2 if you wanted? Nah, that wont work. Hmm I dont know what would make them work. Maybe they should just be eliminated...

Potential HP/MANA table:

0 con/mind 400 HP 350 mind
10con 450 HP etc
50 con 750 HP
90 con 850 HP
100 con = 900HP (no sanc)

From: Gho Saturday, December 14, 03:15PM

I can't see how it can be balanced any other way.. ok, str fighters do mor damage and dex fighters hit more, but str would need to do more than twice the damage and dex would need to hit more than twice as often considering ones opponent's gonna be stunned for a lot of the fight meaning you don't miss and do double the damage.. *ponders all them old oars out there with the damage cap removed* oh, and sancs.. they'd also benefit con fighters more.. someone with 200 hp's basically gains 100 hp's from a sanc, those with 400 gain an extra 350. tis silly :/

From: Gho Saturday, December 14, 03:40PM

oops, make that 300, not 350.. tis still a big difference :/

From: Gail Sunday, December 15, 12:15AM

Very good reasoning about how str fighters would need to do 2x the danage, and dex fighters would have to hit 2x as often. (well a little over 2x)

So, they will :)

From: Shemp Sunday, December 15, 05:32PM

So are you saying that con fighters will no longer be able to get 9 (or whatever then new max is) number of attacks? If dex fighters are getting 9 attacks by 6 max dam (54 total) then con fighters would have to get like 4 attacks by hte same damage to even it out. At that rate, a level 50 con fighter would get killed by a captain (with current mobs). I really dont think that makeing mobs easier is a solution that any of us want. Maybe dex fighters could have a special line of code in hte fight stuff that lets them hit twice as often as other styles. Obviously 18 times 6 damage isnt right, but maybe 12 is, and 6 attacks for con and str fighters (thinking about trident and oars, brahman staffs, Kitty) would be cool. Not that I dont think that the Immort staff is capable of figuring this out, but I would like to see more player input. I _AM_ looking forward to trees, but hope that the mud doesnt change from 99% dex fighters (like now) to 99% con fighters. That IMHO would not be an improvement. Maybe (and I know alot of Imms will _really_ hate this idea) the solution has been there all along: balance the fighting by having different rules governing the "best" weapons.

i.e. all Q5 daggers do 6 damage by 12 attacks, all Q5 con weapons do 6 damage by 6 attacks and all str Q5 swords do 12 damage by 6 attacks. Yeah, yeah I know this puts them way outa spec. But it does effectivley balance the scales (considering the planned HP scale). Besides, whats "outa spec" mean anyway? Things that are outa spec are only outa spec til the so-called specs are changed. Look at how many items are 2k rent, +10 one stat, and -10 another? Isnt this "outa spec" in a sence? Shouldnt they be -5 whatever stat? Oh well I am ranting now, sorry.

No ideas on making sancs fair, Gho is right. The more HP you have, the more a sanc ring bends whats even and what isnt.

-Shemp

From: Gho Sunday, December 15, 06:29PM

ok, so will dex recieve more attacks as Shemp displayed? not just hit more often? if not then they're only really gonna hit twice as often like every 2nd round.. also isn't this huge hp range gonna cut down on options, like i have a sniper who's at 100 dex 100 perc 50 con.. seems i'd be better off with 100 dex 80 perc 70 con or even dump that character and go for 100 dex 100 con!? I dunno, still seems it'd be easier to balance if con fighters had little more than 100 hp's over other fighter types..

From: Gail Monday, December 16, 06:46AM

ok. it's going to become harder to hit. then dex fighters will hit a greater percentage of the time, and stunned mobs will no longer automatically get hit, although they will be easier to hit. by making it not automatic, dex fighters + to-hit will still matter.

From: Shemp Monday, December 16, 10:01AM

If a stunned mob doesnt get creamed for a full damage, full hit, then whats the point??? I mean, a stunned mob is just that, stunned. He _should_ get crunched badly. In effect, you would be taking away a mages best ability. And what about paralyzing backstabs, warcry, ? They wont get a full hit anymore either? And will stunned still get twice the damage? Hmmm, imho I dont think changing "being stunned but will probably recover" is the answer to evening fighting ablitliy. Stun should be just that - stunned. The fight system shoudl be even in its own. Anyone, with any fighting style can stun an oppenent, especially after trees go in.

From: Gail Tuesday, December 17, 08:52AM

If your chance to hit is doubled, and the amount of damage that you do is doubled, a stunned mob (or player) is going to get creamed.

However a design decision was made to make dex fighters hit a greater % of the time. So, this has to be relatively universally applicable in order for it to be *possible* to balance the system. I get enough complaints already about how dex fighters are going to 'suck', the last thing I need is to have them actually suck. I'm a little at a loss as to how else to do it. If you can give me a completely balanced combat system (or one as balanced as what I'm doing) that you feel is better I'd be glad to look at it.

From: Beam Tuesday, December 24, 05:22AM

Will each 10 points of dex change your chance of hitting to the same degree that 10 points of con will affect hp? If each stat had their own benefits equal to the others and they were based on the 10 point scale then it would be balanced i think and interesting too. Where one could have 70 in dex con and str and get benefits from each, hitting harder than dex and con fighters having more hp than str dex fighters etc.

From: Gho Thursday, December 26, 10:03PM

I'm kinda concerned that 100 dex 100 con or 100 str 100 con will be able to kick a mages or snipers butt! i mean a mage can currently reliably stun someone with such stats but they'd also be able to reliably stun as well with 2 fight stats.. now it wouldn't completely balance it but would help some, have you thought of limiting secondary stats to 80 or so?

From: Gail Sunday, December 29, 03:55AM

About beams post:

Yes.
(well, it's not *quite* a 10-point scale, but they're set up to have the same magnitude of effect)

Re: Gho's post

I'm working on making sure that 100 mind for a mage, or 100 perc for a sniper is just as useful as a second fight stat. I think I'll even pull it off :)

From: Vyper Sunday, December 29, 09:53PM

*cheer Gail*