| Legend vs (?)MUD |
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| Legend vs (?)MUD |
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You can chat and reply to tells while sleeping as well as read and write on the boards which are accessible from anywhere.. (these are all kinda OOC things anyway so why not make them available while sleeping?)
Rent is free and instead items are restricted by level plus you can store items in the bank without charge..
You can't flee while not fighting thus avoiding fleeing back into mobs, it tells you which way you fled plus you can specify which direction to flee.
Scan is a free skill to all and without lag (i hardly ever use it on legend because of the skill lag).
An amnesia spell (scroll) to clear all you've learnt and restore your practices.
A pray system where if you keep the (np) gods happy you can pray and recieve a heal, cure poison or balls of light..
A donation room, why simply junk items when u can donate it to those unfortante enough to DT.
A befriend list where only those you've befriended are able to touch your corpse.
Shopkeepers offer custom items, (ie. collect various items, seashells, snakeskins etc and they'll make you something nifty)
Sleeping to heal is an option! i timed sleeping to heal on Legend, it took 32 mins from 60 to 510 hp's.. even if i had half the hp's it takes wayyy to long, increase natural hp regen or put in more healing points like the wells in tara.. (surgeons and other healers are very rarely available)
These few things may not seem like such a big deal, easy to ignore but if it wasn't for certain flaws in the other MUD plus the fight system being better here i'd be playing that other MUD instead.
I think Ptah mentioned recently he doesn't want to make life any easier for us but u gotta keep in mind that there's a very fine line between challenging and frustrating. Realism can also kill a game especially when inconsistant to only hinder the players. eg. if magic can exist, why can't shops be open 24 hrs? :)
Beam waits to see some legendcode muds.
>You can chat and reply to tells while sleeping as well as read
>and write on the boards which are accessible from anywhere..
>(these are all kinda OOC things anyway so why not make them
>available while sleeping?)
Most of the area boards are not OOC boards at all. Neither are the clan boards, for example. In fact, the only OOC boards I can think of are the ones in OOC, and the welcome board, which is specifically intended to be for welcoming new players. The chat/tell while sleeping thing has been an ongoing debate for at least two years.
> Rent is free and instead items are restricted by level plus you
>can store items in the bank without charge..
I hate the level limits system. It's lame and poor game design. It means that you couldn't come up with a decent system to restrict access to equipment. On the mud newsgroups, Legend's system is generally considered to be the best and most flexible, whenever the topic comes up for discussion. The better alternative yet would be a fully functional mud economy making the valuable stuff basically next to impossible to obtain due to its rarity.
Storing items in the bank without charge is a quick way to game imbalance, and I will be very surprised if that mud is not or does not become a Monty Haul game where the immortals have to constantly make new and tougher mobs and items.
> You can't flee while not fighting thus avoiding fleeing back into
>mobs, it tells you which way you fled plus you can specify which
>direction to flee.
In the past, flee has been used as a social here. :) But if enough players wish it, we can change it so that you cannot flee unless you are in combat. Fleeing in a direction is clearly not fleeing in panic, but an orderly retreat. Panic is the reason we do not give the direction. Under skill trees, you will be able to back out of fights in an orderly manner.
> Scan is a free skill to all and without lag (i hardly ever use
>it on legend because of the skill lag).
We have plans to make large alterations to how rooms work so that you will be able to see large objects and people from adjacent rooms, etc. Also, it sounds like perhaps the skill delay on scan currently may need looked at?
> An amnesia spell (scroll) to clear all you've learnt and restore
>your practices.
This eliminates the point of a classless system where you make choices. All you have to do is get amnesia and start over as a totally new sort of character. :( It would be a very bad fit with the skill trees system as you would basically always suck at the new skills...
> A pray system where if you keep the (np) gods happy you can pray
>and recieve a heal, cure poison or balls of light..
This is incredibly open to abuse. A very bad idea. :(
> A donation room, why simply junk items when u can donate it to
>those unfortante enough to DT.
There is a donation room in the Abbey that nobody makes use of. :)
> A befriend list where only those you've befriended are able to
>touch your corpse.
This sort of thing has recently been under my personal consideration, actually.
> Shopkeepers offer custom items, (ie. collect various items,
>seashells, snakeskins etc and they'll make you something nifty)
Again, skill trees code provides that ability for players.
> Sleeping to heal is an option! i timed sleeping to heal on
>Legend, it took 32 mins from 60 to 510 hp's.. even if i had half
>the hp's it takes wayyy to long, increase natural hp regen or put
>in more healing points like the wells in tara..
>(surgeons and other healers are very rarely available)
Sleeping regens at (I believe) either 66% or 100% faster rate than standing does. Remember that using real time as a measure is not valid, as it occurs on the tick and ticks are of variable length. If surgeons are other healers are not available, that is because players are not playing them; rather than make them utterly pointless to play by having the mud take over their role, we'd prefer to make them more worthwhile to play. Suggestions are welcome. I know that every herbalist and surgeon will be VERY unhappy if their healing skills are useless because you can get healed just as easily without them.
>These few things may not seem like such a big deal, easy to ignore
>but if it wasn't for certain flaws in the other MUD plus the fight
>system being better here i'd be playing that other MUD instead.
Frankly, many of the features you describe are ones that are always very popular on a mud, but quickly lead to that mud requiring endless maintenance and having very poor player retention. Unless the mobs there are extraordinarily tough, it sounds to me like the mud is rather easy--you have any skills and equipment you want anytime (just get amnesia, store eq in the bank, etc), you heal fast, you have less risk (scan and flee), greater insurance in case of catastrophe (donation room), access to immort help whenever you happen to get an immort who feels like it, and the only way that the staff can limit the power of players is to put level limits on equipment. :(
Now, I realize that people are going to want to debate each of the above statements, but please read my next append first. :)
>I think Ptah mentioned recently he doesn't want to make life any
>easier for us but u gotta keep in mind that there's a very fine
>line between challenging and frustrating. Realism can also kill
>a game especially when inconsistant to only hinder the players.
>eg. if magic can exist, why can't shops be open 24 hrs? :)
Well, shops aren't open 24 hours in order to make players plan ahead a little better, and to give a better simulation of a real world out there. In that sense it is perhaps "more realistic" but it also has to do with simple gameplay. The game becomes easier if there are shops open all the time. It also becomes easier if there are no locked doors. And easier still if there are no mobs guarding the cool equipment.
"Realism" in a mud is not a matter of making it realistic like the real world--it is a matter of making it internally consistent. I don't think that overall Legend is frustrating, and given the players we have who have stuck around for so long, I don't think the players as a whole do. I have no doubt that there are certain elements that are, though. And we'll gladly work to remedy them.
When I say that I don't want to make life any easier, what I mean is that currently players are quite a bit more powerful and capable than mobs are. This reduces challenge in the game. Adding too many easy heals, instant switches of skill sets, or whatever, just means that players will get more powerful.
Often the ideas that attract the most support from players are the ones that would make their lives easier--and then when we as immorts resist them, we seem like bad guys. You'll notice that the sort of things that get implemented with the greatest alacrity are things that work to preserve game balance, or make players' lives more comfortable--cool frills, not new capabilities for players. We're all very happy to code things like whoconference, or configurable prompts, or things of that nature--they do not affect game balance at all. Things that add player capabilities, though--those we have to look at very carefully.
A recent example of this was the decision to remove levels from who. It does seem to have solved the problem it was intended to address, which was pkillers using it as a menu from which to select victims. At least, that entire issue of debate (which got very acrimonious and accusatory, if you recall) has disappeared.
People care quite a lot about prefix titles and whois titles now, and we can build upon that base now, adding things like whois's or prefixes for other achievements (trivia champion, perhaps, or rp awards, or what-have-you). But when it first happened, every player screamed bloody murder. I'd note that it was quite a bone of contention among the immorts as well.
But we didn't do it to "hinder" play, but rather to improve it. Even if many players do feel that they are hindered by the lack of levels, the simple fact is that there are not huge long angstful letters accusing other players of being utter jerks (and worse) getting posted daily on the war board anymore. The climate of pkill has improved a LOT as a result of that change, but I doubt that the immortals or that change will get any credit for it.
I bring up this example in hopes that people will recognize that the point-by-point responses to the suggestions above are to be taken quite literally, that the explanations of why we do not wish to install some of them are not at all grounded in "hindering" players but in trying to make this a more fun environment overall.
One thing to note when comparing Legend to other muds may be a little unusual to think about. Legend is probably 1/10th the size of that mud you are comparing us to. Yet it offers an equivalent amount of gameplay. Most muds rely on a huge range of stock areas and vast arrays of equipment and ever-increasingly difficult mobs to provide challenge. They do that because their game system is poorly balanced. Then again, most muds have to do equipment and playerwipes periodically because of those practices. Legend has not had an eq wipe or a playerwipe since it opened to the public two and a half years ago, and it is because we pay so much attention to the balance issues. Yes, it bugs players a lot. :) But we haven't wiped their character either.
A similar debate takes place now over skill trees. There have been many players very concerned about the filtering process. Most muds would just playerwipe and be done with it. We are trying very hard to make sure that we do not need to go to such an extreme, yet still preserve and enhance the playability of the game. I think that players will quite enjoy a lot of the changes we have in store.
BTW, I keep up quite regularly with mud design issues on the newsgroups and as part of my job--if you find a mud with features that seem interesting or unique (and I'd note that most of the ones described above are stock features, such as the donation room, or even worse "sacrifice" where you get to junk a corpse or item and get gold or XP in return--what a silly idea!) please let me know, and give me the address and name. Likewise if you plan to stop playing Legend in favor of another mud.
I'd also note that features that players immediately think are cool, such as the ones described by Gho above, are usually in new muds. :) New muds are usually started by players, after all. And they usually close very quickly. :( Usually because they are unbalanced and poorly administrated. We were lucky enough to make it past that stage (and we made some really boneheaded mistakes early on, too!) and now make a point of NOT looking at design issues solely from the player perspective.
Lastly--remember that this is NOT an adversarial situation. The immortals are players too. We don't brainwash new immorts into thinking that the players are the enemy, or anything. But there is a certain perspective it provides, once you've been on the side of trying to keep the game running and fun.
Here's hoping you understand the immortal viewpoint a little better,
-Ptah
Yes, skill trees will very much affect the basic code, but the ways in which they affect it actually make it more flexible. Once skill trees are in, we will be able to code things into the code base that permit things not just because we want it at LegendMUD, but because other muds WILL want it, and because the skill trees code is simply a better base on which to build than the current code is.
The goal for the code we release is that you be able to make any sort of MUD now. There aren't any Diku-derived bases out there that let you add in moods, that have local weather, or a script system like here. (You know what feature I recently saw cited as really cool? Having a tiny delay on movement so that you can't speedwalk instantly across the entire mud. Yes, stuff like that even gets cited on the newsgroups as "a cool LegendMUD feature." :) Go figure.)
But we have a lot of work to do before the code is capable of handling that wide a range of needs rather than just our specialized needs, if that makes sense.
-Ptah
I didn't mean it as being out of character in the sense of being non game related etc but the chat system isn't realistic already, it's not like restricted to yelling distance or anything so may as well go a lil step further and allow it to be used while sleeping.
>> Rent is free and instead items are restricted by level plus you
>>can store items in the bank without charge..
>
>I hate the level limits system. It's lame and poor game design. It
>means that you couldn't come up with a decent system to restrict
>access to equipment. On the mud newsgroups, Legend's system is
>generally considered to be the best and most flexible, whenever the
>topic comes up for discussion. The better alternative yet would be
>a fully functional mud economy making the valuable stuff basically
>next to impossible to obtain due to its rarity.
*shrug* i see nothing wrong with it.. at least 1 benefit is u don't lose everything while doing a quest requiring u to be over rent and you lose connection..
>Storing items in the bank without charge is a quick way to game
>imbalance, and I will be very surprised if that mud is not or does
>not become a Monty Haul game where the immortals have to constantly
>make new and tougher mobs and items.
You're saying that allowing one to have backup eq for when they lose everything (the only use i've found for it) isn't good because it doesn't slow the players progression?? If so well.. maybe it does keep the player going longer but it sure doesn't add to the game any. it's damn frustrating :/
>> You can't flee while not fighting thus avoiding fleeing back into
>>mobs, it tells you which way you fled plus you can specify which
>>direction to flee.
>
>In the past, flee has been used as a social here. :) But if enough
>players wish it, we can change it so that you cannot flee unless you
>are in combat. Fleeing in a direction is clearly not fleeing in
>panic, but an orderly retreat. Panic is the reason we do not give
>the direction. Under skill trees, you will be able to back out of
>fights in an orderly manner.
I've kinda used it as a social on occasion too :)
perhaps if u just make it always fail while not attacking ?
>> Scan is a free skill to all and without lag (i hardly ever use
>>it on legend because of the skill lag).
>
>We have plans to make large alterations to how rooms work so that
>you will be able to see large objects and people from adjacent rooms,
>etc. Also, it sounds like perhaps the skill delay on scan currently
>may need looked at?
oooh, and while you're at it, should there be a delay on dash at all??
>> A pray system where if you keep the (np) gods happy you can pray
>>and recieve a heal, cure poison or balls of light..
>
>This is incredibly open to abuse. A very bad idea. :(
not really, not if overuse of it displeases the gods :)
>> A donation room, why simply junk items when u can donate it to
>>those unfortante enough to DT.
>
>There is a donation room in the Abbey that nobody makes use of. :)
who's gonna run items all the way to the donation room? :)
>> Shopkeepers offer custom items, (ie. collect various items,
cool, btw on the other mud you have 'list' like u do here as well
as 'custom' to display custom items, (works well).
>> Sleeping to heal is an option! i timed sleeping to heal on
mmm, there's a hell of a lot of players who started in tara who aren't
healers, 100 spirit augment's about all that's worthwhile and it's just too
much to pay unless you spam for it and even then you're gonna have an excessive
amount of spirit or even have to go without a sanc. Healers want to be able to
fight well too since they aren't always gonna be grouped.. the pre-req needs
to be lowered or high spirit should offer more (which i believe it will with
skill trees), then there's surgeons, with 50 mind 50 spirit they can operate
on 'others', they have 1st aid which is worthless at high levels and entrance
which isn't often of use and usually fails..
Another thing that may help is to promote grouping more, on this other mud
i noticed that when grouped with people of the same level you don't get
the standard xp/<# in group> but slightly more. Also you generally group
to kill mobs you couldn't possibly solo, it just doesn't pay off as it
should here the way you get less xp the harder a mob is for u to kill :/
>Frankly, many of the features you describe are ones that are always very
Well, dunno if the mobs are real tough but it sure takes a lot longer to
level on that MUD (plus it goes to 90 levels), player and skill levels
are a lot more important than eq, (items aren't +stats, just AC)
amnesia is basically there in case you mess up bad and waste lots of prac
points, (you can only train up to a certain level in a skill then it advances
further with use), you don't really heal fast, it's just that here if i don't
feel like going all the way to tara, i watch tv for 30 odd minutes! :/
Even at double the current hp regen u still wouldn't see many sleeping to heal.
oh and seems u didn't understand what i meant about praying for help..
(np) gods = non player gods, not imms but a chunk of code that reacts to
you entering 'pray' which checks if you're worthy of a miracle :)
Though i would love new type of money (let's have some bills, plz?
i mean, we should be out of the stone age and have some legal
tender other than coins that dont weigh you down too much, eh?--this
is an OOC comment btw...i carry meteorites to maintain my weight anyway)
and configuarble prompts, maybe a who list that only displays the
names you want to see (i.e., to see if your friends are there),
a 'general' mudmail which could be accessed by any char you play
(or a function that allows you to have other chars receive your mail
as well).
And hp regen, for me, it seems it takes into account what your
con is at while you are resting, so if you are complaining, gho,
you are one of those scramble-for-con-when-lvl-then-change-to-dex
kinda person, but i could be totally wrong in my assumption.
I would kinda want to keep root as a taran only skill, tho i
think there probably should be like a 'sacred area' where healing
is sped up a little, or maybe you regen faster if you sleep
comfortably in a bedroll, etc.
Having pray work for player aid would, IMHO, make this MUD too easy.
I mean, flee, pray, fight, flee, pray...and on some other muds,
like BBS-run ones, you could move while fighting, which made the
mud soooo much easier.. and having gods for specific alignments..
isnt that very contrary to our class-less, flexible mud?
Bulk
in fact all my characters have been con, either 100 dex 100 con
unclanned or con mages, basically cos i've always disliked the
hassle one has to go through before levelling otherwise..
Likewise, the sacrifice issue is not as silly an idea as it may look. There
is precedent in virtually every religion known to man in which sacrifices
lead to benefits from the gods or other spirits. And, as Legend is supposed
to be the world as they thought it to be, the lack of an ability to sacrifice
is a hole in the design. Sacrifices could be used to regain a few points of
healing or mana (rather than having total possible hps or mana increased)
or to perform some spells (in fact, you could build an entirely new skill
tree here) such as protection from evil. Such trivial sacrifices could be
used anywhere (spell sacrifices would be limited to mages and healers of
course). Important sacrifices, for gold or x.p. or built up god favor, would
be required only at certain locations. Additionally, poor sacrifices could
actually result in punishments. Its a flexible system with a lot of
possibilities, and, as it fits in with the originally stated design philosophy,
would be consistent with the mud background. It would, however, require
a lot of effort to implement. And, that may be a more important issue than
whether or not it is silly. One of the BIG holes in Legend is the lack of
a god system. The belief in real and active Gods and spirits has been of
overwhelming importance in the development of civilization. Sacrifices
would fit in with the development of such a system. (Having many temples is not
equivalent to having a god/religious system implemented.)
With muds that PRIMARILY offer +/- AC and To-Hit items, you get an
equipment list which is less likely to unbalance the system. Having a
much smaller number of stat changing items while increasing the number
of +/- AC/To-Hit items would improve things here. The problem with stat
changing items is that advancing levels is altered by the items a character
carries. If you mess up, you are simply forced to role-play a little better.
It should be obvious that these 3 paragraphs are responses to different appends and
are not all on the same subject. :)
...Coman
The rent-based system, unlike the lvl-limit system, has two factors to
it, one, you being able to rent it, and two whether or not you choose to
rent that item. A lvl-limit system puts all the decision-making on the
designer of the equipment, and after a certain lvl, there is no limit as to
how many pieces of equipment you can haul around. True that the rent-based
system maybe intimidating to new players, such as a q5 dagger that is worth
well over 3k rent being something a lvl 1 player can't grasp, it is
much better than having it become a lvl 20 or above (for example) eq,
since a lvl 3 character, though he might not be able to rent anything else,
is at least given the option to decide which is best for him: to rent
a great weapon or many other not-so-great items.
The issue regarding sacrifice:
Regarding having more AC, +/- hit eq instead of Stat eq.:
Bulk
i meant as a command.. sacrifice
>>seashells, snakeskins etc and they'll make you something nifty)
>
>Again, skill trees code provides that ability for players.
>>Legend, it took 32 mins from 60 to 510 hp's.. even if i had half
>>the hp's it takes wayyy to long, increase natural hp regen or put
>>in more healing points like the wells in tara..
>>(surgeons and other healers are very rarely available)
>
>Sleeping regens at (I believe) either 66% or 100% faster rate than standing
>does. Remember that using real time as a measure is not valid, as it occurs
>on the tick and ticks are of variable length. If surgeons are other healers
>are not available, that is because players are not playing them rather
>than make them utterly pointless to play by having the mud take over their
>role, we'd prefer to make them more worthwhile to play. Suggestions are
>welcome. I know that every herbalist and surgeon will be VERY unhappy if
>their healing skills are useless because you can get healed just as easily
>without them.
>popular on a mud, but quickly lead to that mud requiring endless
>maintenance and having very poor player retention. Unless the mobs there
>are extraordinarily tough, it sounds to me like the mud is rather easy--you
>have any skills and equipment you want anytime (just get amnesia, store eq
>in the bank, etc), you heal fast, you have less risk (scan and flee),
>greater insurance in case of catastrophe (donation room), access to immort
>help whenever you happen to get an immort who feels like it, and the only
>way that the staff can limit the power of players is to put level limits on
>equipment. :(From: Treacle
Saturday, September 07, 07:23PM
Generally on the pray command on other mud's it will only aid you when you are in dire need, like if you are down to a certain percentage of hp..genereally helps to choose an alignment when creating the character so your god knows whether
Generally on the pray command on other mud's it will only aid you
when you are in dire need, like if you are down to a certain percentage of hp
it probably works better if you choose an alignment when creating the
character so your god knows whether or not you're deserving of having your prayers answered
or not
From: Bulk
Saturday, September 07, 07:57PM
I think what we have is about as flexible as it can get (with items that
only offer +AC, you'll need an amnesia scroll for your stats too,
if you mess up) and the rent system makes it possible to hinder
people from giving/getting too much help from their friends (though
it seems that players advanced enough do this with relative ease)
and the Locker for me would just create more spam-mages, spam-
druids, spam-for-level, etc. or a character bored and going around
collecting high-rent quest items, storing up a bunch of 100hp
poultices or see invis/invis potions etc.From: Manic
Sunday, September 08, 02:10AM
oops, wrong character, anyway.. Gho's a con fighter, i'd hate to
see how long it takes sleeping to heal at less than 100 con.
From: Bulk
Sunday, September 08, 05:00PM
Think it maybe a good idea to participate in trivia while sleeping, at least. :)
Or have a sleep-talk channel for those that are sleeping at that moment...
From: Coman
Wednesday, September 11, 07:50PM
The rent system is simply a level limits system under another name. A
level 1 certainly does not have enough rent to be able to save that 120mm
tank gun and multiple launch rocket system even if he can use it (or, for
that matter, a weapon as simple as a Dolch dagger). He/she must go UP
levels in order to keep the weapon. There is also some rationale to a level
limit on the Ability to use some items. Some items are more complex or
more difficult or require more mana/power/spirit to use than others. I
certainly wouldnt put a private in charge of a $30M F-14. So, does that
make the rent system lame and poor game design? No. They are both
systems designed to put a brake on the infinite equipment problem that
exists in muds. The rent system suffers when people deliberately cheat
and give low level characters very powerful equipment. In a level limited
system, this isnt possible because the low level characters cant use the
equipment (although they may be able to carry it and sell it). Personally, I
much prefer the rent system. But, liking it doesnt make it the best
solution and doesnt solve the Monty Haul equipment giveaway that goes
on constantly.
From: Bulk
Tuesday, September 17, 10:45PM
Whereas Coman believes that the rent system is a lvl-limit system
under a different name, I strongly disagree.
It is true that sacrifice and such has been a great part of religion, but
it really seems silly to me that the gods (any gods for that matter) would
accept any kind of corpses, those you kill for xp, those you kill for eq, and
such. Sacrifices are meaningful when they are done in the proper fashion,
choosing out the best sacrifice, the best place, under certain conditions, etc.
Unless you are offering your sacrifices to a god of chaos and bloodlust, that
does not mind you sacrificing a rotting corpse of an untouchable, I think
it is highly ridiculous and rather unreasonable to implement a system where
one can just type one extra command to gain extra benefit--or not type an
extra command to lose certain benefits others get.
Having such a system would mean redesigning the entire mud, either by
adding lots of stat quests or granting stat bonuses every level.
This also comes close to the argument of rent-based muds vs. lvl-based muds,
putting the deciding factor of what to use and what to become on the designers
rather than the players. The current system is such that no matter what
the stat picks were in the beginning, with effort you can change it upside
down, and inside-out. Whereas this might seem to discourage RP, as people
will be able to switch from one class to another, this problem will be
alleviated with skill trees, and even if it wasnt to be so, people who want
to RP will RP regardless of the system, and there always are, though you
may not believe there are enough of them, drawbacks to switching carriers mid-way.
Besides, AC doesnt do anything under the current combat system, and +/- hit
eq is usually too renty and somewhat out-of-the-norm, IMHO, as this mud
concentrates on advancing in one or two stats and gaining benefits through
proficiency.From: Rusalka
Sunday, September 29, 12:51PM
Regarding augmenters (and the comment that "no one" wants to play'em 'cause
they're wusses)..we're working to rectify that with new skills in ths
skill trees (druids are one of the groups that wil be reworked).
I myself have seen some pretty powerful augmenters, though.
From: Beam
Monday, October 14, 09:10PM
cheer druid changes!
btw rusalka your augmenters good fighters or do you just use a lot of poultices