SL & PD|U6

Posted by Hebe on 06/27

From: Purgatory Friday, June 25 2004, 10:24PM I'm kinda thinking the minimum level increase on its own would have accomplished on its own the goal of allowing fewer newbies to powerlevel. As far as getting people to explore other areas... I don't really see it happening as a result of this. Instead, I see the other "main" xp areas, like Klein, getting hit far more often. Just because SL and PD aren't as attractive anymore, I don't really think people are necessarily going to seek out out-of-the-way places like Anasazi or Melbourne that were largely ignored before. Hey, I could be wrong, it would be far from the first time...I just don't see this accomplishing the (vaguely) stated goals. |U6

From: Rufus Friday, June 25 2004, 11:22PM If I had a dollar for every time I had to tweak something in SL or PD, I'd be a very, very rich man. That being said, there's a number of factors that influenced this... Originally, SL was extremely difficult, as was PD. They've never received anything but upgrades in their power, and I've always attempted to maintain a risk vs. reward where the mobs primarily used what code and skills give them to succeed (I've stayed away from making my mobs anti- something unless it was logical or necessary, the rougher ones occassionally use specials that have no defense or whatnot). I've stayed away from specifically flagging my mobs anti-charm, or throw anti-charm acts in because I wanted every class type to be valued. The mobs, at this point, have been tweaked, retweaked, rethought, recoded, re-evaluated to the point I'm tired of looking at them. The stats vs xp vs skills they use vs environment, vs... whatever, has gotten so muddled and confused that I'm not exactly sure what changes I'm making to them any longer. But still, through this all, players have continued to ramp up and face up to the challenges, and, with rare exception, trivialize them. I'm tired of constantly having to re-evaluate the mobs based on the commonly held belief that both areas are 'xp trains' and givaways where equipment, xp and gold are concerned. This change is the first part in a (hopefully) final re-evaluation of both areas as I'd like to move on to other things. What you're fighting there, now, are what are considered default mobs, both in xp, stats, abilities in damage. I modified the more major characters based on very strict increases that ensure that they are worth exactly the xp they give. It was a way to leave them in-game instead of doing something like removing all the resets except for a big sign that said 'on strike'. There are many, many, many level 50+ mobs in the game. And cutting off the monty haul aspect of both of these areas was the only way I could discourage their use so that I could find out what people consider a challenging and worthwhile encounter. Of the changes, the only two that are permanent are the level restrictions on both areas and the new pool in SL. Everything, in due time, if I'm allowed the chance, will be revamped. I've stopped fighting the fight and given in to the fact that although I'm able to code with large numbers while using skills and abilities available to players, the encounters ultimately end up getting mastered and the areas are rapidly perceived as easy places for xp. There will always be something to be learned about encounters that will make them easier, but I want SL and PD to be durable areas that remain challenging into the future, while still encouraging a moderate usage. Before this patch, they were used far more than any other XP area. Is it because of the density? The ease? The loot? The ability to PL there? That's what I need to find out, and no amount of tweaking with the numbers that were in place would ever tell me that. Ruf |U6

From: TigerLilly Saturday, June 26 2004, 12:16AM I can see your frustration, Rufus. And i didn't mean to critisize you, or your areas in any way. I adore the fact that you have to be four fifths of the possible levels to even enter an area of that nature. xp is everything, on Legend. it drives 90% of what we do, with your two areas as they were, they were certainly the fastest way of getting xp. i think pd is much more guilty of this than sl, though. i think sl was nearly perfect, exactly the way it was. i don't think it was run nearly as much, but that's because pd is easier, and quicker. you can do one side of pd and be done, and have a nice bunch of xp in the meantime. however, if this change only applied to pd and not sl, that would quickly change, i understand that and i remember the days before pd fairly well. but even at that point, sl wasn't run nearly as much as pd is run these days. i'd guess one side or another of pd is run an average of twice per day, and sl twice per week. sl takes a little more thought and planning. and the newbie that's playing the flavor of the month really isn't capable of understanding all of it's quirks, which is untrue of pd. You and i talked in great lengths about sl a few days back, and i think i made myself clear that it's by far my favorite area in the existing mud. it likely always will be and i'll miss it quite a bit, if this change becomes permanent. Honestly, i dislike pd, because of what it has become. i've disliked it for a very long time, and never bothered to learn it, because of that. though i'm quite guilty of going on runs there to gain quick xp. but i'd MUCH rather run sl, period. Now, after saying all of that, I'll say this. Sl is the original puzzle area. it was the first of it's kind on this mud, and it will always be extremely unique to me because of that. I feel very strongly that it should stay as it was yesterday, with one modification. Level 50 to enter, period. This solves two problems, in my mind. it gives level 50 healers, who can rarely find 100k xp a week, something to be useful for. it also keeps the lowbies from powerlevelling. As far as PD, i have no suggestion whatsoever, i just think it's sad that something you've put so much time into has resulted in what we call pd. i'm done rambling for now, i suppose. i just really hate to see this change. |U6

From: Yay Saturday, June 26 2004, 10:55AM If you dont wanna have to deal with the downside of making a pure healer... Then dont make one. |U6

From: Purgatory Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:02PM Okay, armed with a little better understanding of why this change was made, it seems that this is just out of frustration about people mastering SL and PD too easily (which by the way I, like TL, think is far more true of the latter than of the former), and a desire to find out what could make them more challenging. KZ is rarely run, in spite of the fact that it contains several of the most sought-after items in the game, because people are afraid of it and of the high potential for disaster contained therein. I think it's one of the most fun experiences I've ever had. The danger makes it exciting. For one thing, it's a complicated web of a maze area without simple directions to any one target, so if you get lost, good luck. For another, the mobs wander around like lost puppies, so you have to be constantly alert. If you slack off, you're probably going to die. And for yet another, the several "boss" characters are insanely tough. I don't know whether this is due to the cheese tactics you mentioned like specials, but they are damn tough...and the Tarasque? I bet you could count the number of times he's even been attempted in the past year on the fingers of one hand. However...I have confidence that one day, KZ will be mastered. Hell will come, and will seem insanely tough at first I'm sure...I hear Satan is nigh-impossible. Eventually, however, he too will fall, and whatever other challenges tossed the players' way will be met. Why? That's what we do. Players play the game and they improve...as a result, there is never going to be any "permanent" state you can put any area into--SL, PD or any other--that is always going to be an enormous challenge to players...not until there is a "permanent" state the players themselves are in, and that will never happen. I have never built an area on a mud, but I can understand how frustrating it would be if I spent hundreds of hours crafting a challenging area, thinking to myself "This will really kill 'em!" only to find that scant months later, my area had been been dominated and had the players practically wandering in and out at will. So I empathize. But I think the goal you are reaching for here is ultimately one that does not exist. That being said, however, I'm all for a much more challenging experience (especially in PD) and I think the level restriction increase was long overdue. I just hope the more "permanent" changes are made in a way that retains the fun I've had in those areas for so long. |U6

From: Rufus Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:29PM Let me be a little clearer - This wasn't

From: just

From: out of frustration =) I want to make one final pass at these and hopefully they'll endure. Yeah, I'll know they'll be mastered at some point, but I would rather them be part of the challenging areas than constantly having it pointed out to me exactly how easy they are and how they ruin other areas. I wanna make a better area. That's about it. |U6

From: Purgatory Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:40PM Well, maybe the cheese tactics are unavoidable. I can't speak for others, but I know I've never said "Oh man, that mob only beat us because it used a special. That is so CHEAP!" Either we're good enough to kill it, or we aren't. How about mobs with firearms who can shoot members of your group into another room to pick them off one by one? That'd give me nightmares. And no cheese. Or how about more mobs with actual fight skills? There are times when I'm fighting a mob that's usually not all that hard, but they get a nasty headbutt in on me and I'm suddenly toast. I don't see much skill use at all in SL or PD--if any? That's all I have right now. |U6

From: Rufus Saturday, June 26 2004, 06:51PM That's because by the time you bring 5 hitters, and a slew of healers, the mobs spend most of the time stunned or sitting. I've refused, up to this point, to make things like mobs that are unstunnable that will headbutt you =) Catch my drift? |U6

From: Kae Saturday, June 26 2004, 09:56PM The new Hell is not meant to be as deadly as, say, KZ. |U6

From: TigerLilly Saturday, June 26 2004, 11:05PM I think i understand this a bit more clearly now. And the more I think about it, the more I like this change. First, SL / PD eq is no longer in that high of demand. Though I still think the dagger there is the best in the game, bar none. I've yet to play with the new weapons there, and i'm sure they're quite nice. But in this age of legendmud, there isn't on dominant weapon any more, thus the gear isn't in such high demand. From this point on, I'm not even going to address PD, because i think it ended up being a waste of time for the single best builder legend has. I think it's a great area, but it's abused, and i dislike that and will happily live without it. Now, for SL: I've been fortunate enough to speak to Rufus one on one about things that are forthcoming, and I think it's simply great. I think it will be exactly as it was when the orginal SL was installed. And i think we'll all forget all about this conversation, and this issue. But i do have a suggestion, for the current SL, that i think would improve it, as a harder area. I think the mundane mobs, like skatha's warriors need to be harder. I think they need to hit harder, and I think they need to be smarter mobs. It's a problem that they're always sitting or stunned, and I see the point of not making them no_stun or no_sit. but i'm afraid that in todays mud, they need to be to make them challenging. I think another good idea, would be to make a few follow each other. so when you shoot one in, two might follow him and kill the entire group. perhaps make a bigger consequence for doing something out of order, if you will. for example: If you skip Erin, he appears and assists Cuch. Anyway, yadayadayada. TL. |U6

From: Kill Sunday, June 27 2004, 03:57AM Being killed by a LOTP is a joke? Is that a joke? |U6

From: Cypri Sunday, June 27 2004, 10:30AM Well, I've been to both the new Sl and PD... I like it. I think that the changes are all for the better, while I was a lil disappointed that I got the same xp froma crow as a pirate, I think that think that it's all going to be for the better, as it seems It seems to discourage really large groups, but we don't seem to have a lot lot of people on for the runs anymore... SO, my hat's off to Rufus, and I'm happy with I'm happy with the changes.. Cypri |U6

From: Rufus Sunday, June 27 2004, 01:42PM The changes I'm trying, these are what I'm currently testing on my test mud: Pirate's Den: - Minimum level stays at 39 - Some folks under 44 might feel a bit singled out and require extra protection while in PD - Mobs wander far more frequently, and can, under certain circumstances, wander into rooms that were previously reasonably safe. - Jewelled saber modified to make it a more traditional and usable weapon - Bloody rags and jewelled crown modified to make these items worth owning, and to see if that'll entice people into their respective sides - South side only available after triggering a certain event - Some changes such that charmies will still be useful, but a charmie army might have some trouble succeeding - Slightly increased spawn timer (over the original, not the currently, extremely lengthy one) - AC returned to all items that had it before, rent adjusted as necessary. - Modified stats on the silver sash so they're not quite as useless SL: - Minimum level of 44 to leap across the bridge - Increased mobs' use of fighting skills and specials - Hound special damage now had a random factor - Same charmy fix applied as above in PD - Mobs should be allowed to do their special skills more often - Cuch's cloak upgraded, but rent upscaled as well - AC returned to many items that had lost it in recent weeks - Changed the demon king's fight strategies a bit, also made him more likely to spawn the other two demon kings - Skatha's warriors are a bit smarter about fighting Thoughts? |U6

From: Boba Sunday, June 27 2004, 01:54PM Beautiful. |U6

From: Flayme Sunday, June 27 2004, 03:34PM Just a couple thoughts on changes to SL Have Erin move about like he used to way back when? I was always somewhat confused as to why he spends his life stuck in that 1 room now. Make Skatha get annoyed again when you wack her warriors in front of her? |U6

From: Rufus Sunday, June 27 2004, 03:39PM There's a reason erin doesn't move around like he used to. I know one person's figured it out =) Skatha and the warrior thing... I'm working on another way to make Skatha and her warriors work much differently but that will have to wait a while. Suffice to say, right now, that she thinks her warriors should be able to stand up for themselves. If they're weak enough to be defeated, she's happy to stand by and watch the carnage

From: grin

From: |U6

From: Vampyr Sunday, June 27 2004, 07:10PM Just a thought, that I hope you keep in mind, please don't make SL so insanely hard like KZ, because there just isn't enough player activity these days to get a group large enough to run KZ I know I know, it's supposed to be that way, but those players that are telling you SL is too easy, I can gaurantee more will tell you it's too annoying if you make it super hard! :P |U6

From: Purgatory Sunday, June 27 2004, 08:23PM I'm thinking the complaints about SL and PD being too easy are coming just as much from the imm side as from the mort side, if not more. |U6

From: Jett Sunday, June 27 2004, 10:45PM I like the new changes to the areas, actually I love that PD is getting harder harder (I hate truncated lines) but level 44 to leap the bridge? that seems steep. I tihnk maybe it should be made level 44 to go into calatin or demon kings blah blah blah, but lower levels should at least be able to stay for skatha's

From: shrug

From: just my opinion. Oh I would like to say though that SL is one of my favorite areas and has been for a long long time. PD notsomuch, it was always just a bunch of quick levels, so kudos for the changes in that respect. |U6