PK and chalices|U6

Posted by Allegory on 06/12

From: Spanish-Flea Tuesday, April 27 2004, 07:14PM first off, mages get that sip, snipers get anywhere from 70-100 hp on a backstab with a para chance, if mages are the worst of your worries, god help your little high hp butt. Snipers who rail about unfair advantages need to be taken outside and shot a few times. Mages get a chalice, for [actual amount removed] rent, and the weight of it and a water source, and the hassle of preserving it with no ingame preserve mob. Mages get healing on a 1:1 basis for their mana, preps, wfw stuns, and damage spells. Snipers get: insane hunt, insane damage with a chance to paralyze their victims and do more damage than a mage ever could unopposed. Snipers get, oh right, SNIPE,the most powerful combat skill in the game. It's the equivalent of me having a fair roll against your 25 mind butt for an instant death. Snipers get tumble, they get GOOD block and dodge, they get parry, they get juggle (cant thrw vials at you, cant shoot you that often--WEAPONS DO WAY LESS DAMAGE TO YOU. Also can't stun you, bash you, or headbutt you with accuracy because tumble will go off, despite the 'it's rare it goes off' attitude people have about it. When you're on the receiving end of a tumble, trust me--it goes off waaay too much. Snipers get the ability to damage you outside of the room with a gun, their flee goes off whenever they want it too, they can use a bow, you can be a surgeon sniper, an aider sniper, or an inciter sniper if you so please. |U6

From: Allegory Wednesday, April 28 2004, 01:55AM you know, i paralyze maybe once every 3 pk fights. i get wfw'd about 3 times in each pk fight. and when you're stunned and firestormed, it hurts every bit as much as (if not more than) a backstab. the fact is, snipers are the only worthwhile non-magic pk option at this point pk option at this point because we DO have some advantages, as you point out. i'm not saying that snipers suck. but honestly, i'm sick of watching 3c causes wfw me to half my hps, then run to water where they spam cure crit. if i attack, they clear their buffer and cast watery death or drown or whatever and there goes another 75-80 hps. trust me, while tumble is nice, i can't tumble combat spells, nor can i absorb their mana with a magic sink. |U6

From: Sana Wednesday, April 28 2004, 01:00PM I think Allegory has a good point and i'm glad he made a suggestion that fixes the problem in pk without screwing with the mobkill players but then again, I also agree with spanish-flea...snipers have a backstab each tick mages get a sip every 2 ticks...then again...maybe if allegory changed it to this, the could should search for the word VINA on your character and if it see's it you should not be able to drink chalices with a pk timer. Because my chalice mana goes directly into flinging more spells at ya allegory, it doesn't go into running and healing :P The more mana I have the less chance I run around to ingame mobs! Wheee! But seriously in the end I think this is the problem with cause mages rearing its ugly head where a cause mage can afford to fight someone for a while to weaken them then run off to heal I have to make each and every single second count... and each and every single hp too...but seriously, none of what anyone said except for spanish-flea, is gonna happen :P And what he said has already happened err soooo. |U6

From: Craven Wednesday, April 28 2004, 11:00PM Having played both types multiple times in pk...mages definately have the advantage. Stoneskin, blind, cure blind, magic sink, bind, cure crit, firestorm, gust of wind, watery death, the list just goes on. You're telling me that backstab is better then having all those options? Hah. Whens the last time you failed a firestorm? I think with all my mages, I've done it twice....ever. I've failed 2 backstabs in one fight. A chant vina agni rudh ex from a mage with any mind is easily 70 damage, unstunned. Wow...That happens to be my average damage on backstabs. Either way, I don't care about the change one way or the other, but don't try to say snipers are somehow equal or better then mages...because that is a load of bs. :) If it was true, maybe I'd have a sniper in pk, but I refuse for the very reasons I stated above...I don't need the aggrivation of being firestormed 6 times in one fight and having 2 of my backstabs dodged. - Craven |U6

From: Molath Wednesday, April 28 2004, 11:18PM I'd say snipe's the best PK equalizer when you dont have to factor in stupid things like wussies counting out a timer and rejecting you. No matter what the arguement about a spell being more mana, in the long run you cant beat one bullet pulling down as many hp as all 150 of those sipped mana points would do in firestorms. Craven, you yourself have to have the most hypocritical arguement here, you commonly state you keep your character where he is because you cant imagine doing any damage with your weapon during a fight round. Yet here you are preaching snipers taking massive damage by staying in a room and fighting, you'll be in there a round at most, maybe 3-4 if the mage wants to try and stun-- which can very easily turn into a tumbled 35 mana loss. Mages, in retrospect, do have the listed spells, but then again, snipers have taints and enough rent to carry vials so it wont matter. You can't argue a con bow sniper is disadvantaged against a cause mage when you can sit there throwing 110 rent arrows at a mage who has to waste more than the 30 mana from a chalice sip would warrant in order to remove the negative effect, plus the added bonus of being able to fire off another round at the same mage as the lag from their last curing takes place. That or they have to use vials--not exactly the cheapest or most rent efficient mage tactic. Quite frankly, resistance isnt a real issue either because it's an issue for most classes now. The fact that I've brought up half those spells at recent q and a's with the answer in most cases being 'They've all got a disadvantage, use it to your advatnage.'--I bitched boatloads about stoneskin being a sniper killer, dont look at me, look at the imms and tell them I was right. I can name specific disadvatanges to firestorm, and to cure blind that make them both useless once the sniper has your PK tactic down. Most people won't fight mages who go over water, just like most people refuse to accept my sniper because they have a tendency to be sniped if they pull a dickless manouevre out of craven's bad list of spells bringing me to an important point: you dont need perfect aim to snipe, it's a GOOD chance above 3, and it goes off a LOT in PK at 100 perc. If 10 seconds of your time can win a PK fight while some sucker mage is healing, you shouldn't need the rest. Imms are convinced and argue perc isnt a fight stat-- and I really want it to be because then we get all sorts of fun mage-killer tricks, imagine 90 perc being traded for auto detect invis/illusion, or even a chance to flee over a wall, maybe a chance to flee old school sans skill lag We'd see a whole lot more snipers, Bottom line is if you combine a CHANCE to para, with a CHANCE to tumble, and a CHANCE to snipe with a LOT of hp, you've got a CHANCE to win many many fights. If you dont go dex for defensive purposes, it's for those skills--and let's not forget the slightly nutted topple--still good against those silly non-dexies :P Conclusion: Dont tread on me: Choc is more fun and he wont respond. |U6

From: Allegory Thursday, April 29 2004, 12:08AM re: molath's post: (skip to the bottom of this message if you don't want to see that response. i have a more general thought at the end) 1) snipe is a great pk equalizer. two problems, though. first, it hardly ever goes off. second, i hate using it because i want to PKILL, not snipe. a snipe is funny, but ultimately, it's REALLY boring. 2) regarding bow snipers vs. mage, i have two words for you: MAGIC SINK. those sinks absorb everything (while refilling the mage's mana). even if i hit a dispel, magic sink can be re-cast with almost no lag at all (i.e. a mage can resink and then get in a kick/combat spell before my shoot lag has worn off). plus, on principle, i'm not going to sit there and fire blind arrows mindlessly just to eat up someone's mana (or to permablind a non-mage). i've had it done to me and frankly, it's lame. again, i'm in pkill for the fun of it, not just to win. if i was all was all about winning, i'd build a character who could spam first aid. i'd attack, then flee to a clan hall/safe room, spam heal, and come back. 3) molath's right about resistances, but the imm's have assured us that it's going to change, and let's hope it does. as it is, stoneskin is a total sniper killer. it's also impossible to be a str fighter now thanks to resist items and RoF. the only thing that really doesn't have any disadvantage right now is being a 3c con/cause mage (note that while clumsy and weaken will affect dex and str fighters, there is currently no way to lower someone's con by 10). 4) finally, molath is right about one thing. with the CHANCE of para, the CHANCE of tumble, and the CHANCE of snipe, i have a CHANCE against anyone. there's no one i haven't beaten at least once (except duram, who've i've fought twice and got wfw'd three or four times in each fight). the only problem is that against those con/causes everything comes down to luck. i think i've only beaten brutus ONCE without needing a para in all my fights with him, and i think i had to tumble tumble tumble. (note: brutus is also my only ever snipe). however, this doesn't help those people who'd like to pk as pure fighters, unfortunately. they're COMPLETELY at the mercy of a mage. anyway, i'm certainly not saying i'm helpless. i've managed to kill (and be killed by) pretty much active pkiller on this mud multiple times. i'm really just trying to think of a way to balance pk a little bit bit more. i don't think anyone would argue that snipers are weak and helpless. however, i doubt anyone would agree that mages rule the pk world, or that plain old fighters are the weakest pk characters. i'm just trying to propose a relatively simple and MINOR idea to help with balance. it might not make a difference in some fights because they could be really short or the mage may not have a timer on to sip his/her chalice. but hey, i'm trying to throw something out there that would be relatively easy to code and could make JUST enough of a difference to give non- mages (including non-snipers) just a little more of a chance. |U6

From: Tullamore Friday, April 30 2004, 03:41AM Just a few questions. What about a dexie mage with 80 perc and a bow? Do they have any real disadvantage other than hps? And why was topple so quick to change? I know it was powerful but, I would love to play a straight fighter in pkill one day. so 2 weeks of an advantage and that's it? Pkill is a mages game, in my opinion. That's it, I prefer short questions to long answers. Tullamore Dew |U6

From: Spanish-Flea Friday, April 30 2004, 09:01PM first off allegory, sink has the same order of lag on it as a headbutt or kick, shoot is one half that lag. Let me remind you that a tainted arrow is 1/4th to 1/5th the rent of a vial. firing the arrow is on the same order as shoot, reloading is on the same order as shoot (but you dont need to reload right away, you could awlays run) This means that if the mage does not recast the sink immediately, you can reload and shoot the sink off again, keep in mind your first arguement was about 150 extra mana in a fight I cant think of any better way to equalize what you see as an unfair playing field. A bow is only two less stats than two full stat items held, and it's incredibly damaging when arrows in incendiary, and incredibly crippling with taints that effectively mean the mage must be able to rid themselves of it, or die. If you want to get a mage on a fair playing field--snipe them, wait until they've regenerated nearly fully, then attack, that way you can cite your chalice sipping excuse when they tell you not to jump them low unless you like being recalled out of safe rooms to certain death. Also, the chalice sipping death would require a lot of people I know of to grab extra stats for meditate. I know of at least two 2c pkers who dont meditate, because they feel the extra 13 stat points could be better spent on other thins--like maybe more damroll or more dex. Also, I'd like to state that snipe goes off constantly, it's not a small chance, it's a rather disgustingly large chance. Well, at full perc anyway. Look, I can agree that a few specific 3c mage builds dominate pk outside of a decent druid or decent entrancer/aider right now. I can agree that it's not a problem I've heard imms gushing about, in fact, according to very high up imms, creates dont need any balancing right now, I assume Sana can give that imm A piece of her 12-year-old mind :P But, in fairness, I can also agree that eventually the imms are gonna do something about it, something so dramatic that agrabah will become the new Lima. I'd give it another 6 months to a year before we see imm inaction anyway, considering how long creates were king of the hill before chanters and augmenters lost incite. The point is, don't use one class' advantages to target a much more general group of mudders (all chalice users). As to tullamore: Topple was probably nutted due to its power, bash used to be in the same order if skill lag as kick and headbutt But due to it's ability to destroy any flee-reliant class at that lag, it was changed. Toppled started out as an amazing skill-- a critical, no critical fail, damn good damage, and no real blockability by any other type of character other than another toppler. Meaning that unless you had topple stats, you were at it's mercy. Then a critical fail was introduced, and the damage also curbed but the key problem still remained: Hard to fail on non-topplers, and skill lag on the order of kick and headbutt, meaning that essentially--it was a new, old bash skill. Now it's still a damn powerful skill, make no mistake, I dont know exactly how the failure chance was changed but it's safe to say you dont wanna me stuck in a room alone with a str iron-will toppler. As for the dexie mage, with 90+ dex, 80 perc, and the rest of the mage stats, the problem is mind--thanks to certain imms being anal retentive, I really cant get more specific then that. But feel free to mudmail me, I'll send you a stat layout exposing a few key weaknesses. Spanish-Flea: The 'dont tread on mages' spokesperson and rabid anti-imm activist. |U6

From: Kae Saturday, May 01 2004, 05:19AM Just a request. It's a LOT easier to read a post that doesn't wrap. The line limit is 70 chars, roughly, if you want to avoid it. You can write your post on a note first, then append that. Please. Pretty please. It makes it a lot easier to read your post and deal with the actual points you raise, rather than just trying to make out what you're writing. |U6

From: Spanish-Flea Saturday, May 01 2004, 01:55PM Free Kae From Hell!

From: wave tee

From: |U6

From: Neo_Tritoch Saturday, May 01 2004, 05:47PM Well I dunno if you have a create that you've tried pking with and by the same token i've not seen you use a tainter that relies on the dispel arrows so I can assume you are innocently believing what the imms said at the time time of the magic sink change, that the lags were gonna be even. But I use a dispeller and I know a few people who use dispel arrows and unless we are all doing something terribly terribly wrong...it's not even, not even close to even. As for tumble, it was nuts but umm there was a defense for non-topplers to it, and when I've played with it...it's more reliable than bash/tumble. Okay, thanks, die. |U6

From: Surgery Monday, May 03 2004, 12:20PM look, i know that snipe is a great equalizer for snipers. but like i said in my first (and/or second ) post, snipe just isn't fun. i like being able to pkill as well as snipe. what am i supposed to do, then? run and rent if i don't snipe successfully? clearly, that's not what i'll do. again, i don't see why it's a bad idea to add the chalice timer. yes, i know that snipers are pretty darn good. i'm not saying that snipers are too weak. i'm saying that mages are too strong. and let's try to pretend this is a fighter posting this message. not everyone can shoot arrows or guns. those fighters have no chance at all against any decent mage, especially now that topple is even weaker. |U6

From: Masha Tuesday, May 04 2004, 06:53AM Well, I haven'tplayed full mages in the past, but I have played a Well, I haven't played full mages in the past, but I have played a battle-druid, which is really the same affect as the discussion goes. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing the whining about it already. Every character has an advantage, and those who know how to play that advantage against other people are the ones who deserve to gleen every advantage they can. If you're so worried about being stunned, go ask your friendly druid friend with the make amulet skill to help you. So you can't sink yourself? Go ask a mage friend to sink you for the fight against another mage. That solves your problems against offensive spells like firestorm and stun, doesn't it? So you're a fighter, eh? Well, if the mage has cast stoneskin on himself, then slowly lead them about, burn off their movement. It's not that bloody hard. Yeah, they may have on fly, but their movement still gets eaten up just by moving. It's called knowing. Knowledge is power, not just the roll of the dice in the game. --Masha Corlan, old, cranky, and tired. |U6

From: Malandrino Tuesday, May 04 2004, 10:54AM A better equalizer in this case for me it would be to make a cup that we all know in a certain area to go off every time you actually sip from it. Certainly it would not be overpowered even that way. |U6

From: Rand Tuesday, May 04 2004, 11:35AM Considering knowledge is power, you should probably realize that you can't fly fly while stoneskinned. |U6

From: Masha Tuesday, May 04 2004, 12:17PM Dammit, I was working off 4.5 hours of sleep and no coffee. I'm writing it off to people using a wish spell, Rand. --Masha Corlan, tired, very tired, and no coffee. |U6

From: Allegory Tuesday, May 04 2004, 06:44PM masha, re: stoneskin, most mages i know won't chase me when they have stoneskin on. on. they're content to sit and regen and cast cure crit or wait over water for me to come to them. re: amulets, trust me. resist stun amulets don't work. i've already tried. got wfw'd 3 times in my first time wearing one. resist stun is a complete joke and a complete waste of time. re: getting a friend to sink you, well yeah, people can do that, but it'd be nice to be self-sufficient when pk'ing, don't you think? what fun is it to have to rely on someone to cast sink every time you pk? |U6

From: Masha Wednesday, May 05 2004, 10:46PM Cry me a river? Learn to deal with what you have. I made do with a resist stun amulet. I never got stunned. It's not my fault your a fighter with a mind who can just barely determine a wheel of cheese from a wagon wheel. Or a sniper, whatever you're playing at during the whining this post has brought about. I don't care. As for being self-sufficient, that's not my problem that you can't be self-sufficient. Either learn to multi-task, or don't. Quit complaining already. --Masha Corlan, and her player, Rebecca. |U6

From: Allegory Wednesday, May 05 2004, 11:58PM okay, let me say this: i don't think i have whined in this entire thread. i tried to make a suggestion that i thought might benefit the mud in terms of adding a little more balance to pkill. any comments i made about con/cause mages were made in an attempt to illustrate my point and support my suggestion. i felt that for about fifteen posts or so, i was successful in generating some debate. seeing as how this is the discussion board, i think i accomplished my goal. i'm a little surprised to see that someone has asked me to "quit complaining already" since the whole purpose of this board is to discuss ways we can make the mud better and more fun. i have done nothing otherwise. i've pk'd here for ten years, and i'm confident that i have never complained or whined about anything here (other than IC whining usually directed at brutus). i'm done with this thread. my point has been made and the imms have read it. i wasn't trying to debate what class is better, but just making a suggestion. if the rest of you want to talk about snipers and how they're great or horrible, that's fine. my suggestion still stands. |U6

From: Kae Thursday, May 06 2004, 05:00AM I like to play self-sufficient characters. To a great extent because most of my active playing time happens in European hours when there really isn't a lot of people online, and depending on your friends to log in and do you a favor can be a real buttpain (as opposed to all those hours later in the night when I'm technically here on some mort or other but actually mostly over on my testmud breaking something into little pieces and trying to put them back again, a game which we blondes enjoy immensely). There is no such thing as a 100% self-reliant character, though particularly not in pkill which is where this discussion started out. It is true that most services are available from mobs in some form or other, and knowing where is a great start for us go-it-alone types. However, if you're major poisoned, running across the world is not the greatest idea, and if you're blind, asking someone you can't see for help can be a real kicker. You can continue the list if you like. I don't see this as a bad thing. You can prepare for most of these situations if you really put your mind to it (a challenge I can never resist). Can't cure poison? Be sure to have a means to recall close to someone who can. Can't see in the dark? Learn to move blind. And so forth. Now, to return to the original point of this thread, which was, I believe, chalices, I am in full agreement that they're over- powered, and I say this playing primarily mages who use them myself. It's come to be so that we expect any mana users to have a chalice, period. Regeneration without just plain sucks. And it does! I'm not quite certain what the appropriate fix to this is... I'd like to put in some toys in my areas, maybe, to help speed up regeneration, but then I'd just be giving more candy to the chalice kids too. Maybe this is what we should be talking about, rather than beating each other up about in-game knowledge and who's whining and who's not. My two Danish Kroner for the day, worth approx. $0.5 Kae |U6

From: Sana Thursday, May 06 2004, 07:06AM I completely and utterly disagree with everything said in append #3. To the writer--Sana, you sir are a dork. |U6

From: whistle

From: if bs or even kick worked like that it would be considered grosly overpowered yet after all these years of seeing folks say this same thing on boards about dam spells I can't even think of an response on the matter. (I tend to read the boards sporatically and have a bad memmory, though, so that could just be me) Add to that the very short lag on failed/sunk spells and the scale tips even further, as with skills you are charged the full lag regardless of weather or not you are successful. Er.. bash, yeah, but still a 2 round lag. I get that it requires mana to cast so that's a - and all but if kick cost mv points, never missed and was not dodgeable i'd still go jackie chan on some mofos with my fighter. imagine that.. then add about 30 damage and you got yourself cause magic. Stun is tumbleable, why not other spells? oh yeah, that spanish-dudes take on the sniper pro/con thing seems to be how folks in charge look at it. They see what could -=POTENTIALLY=- be inflicted on a high perc guys target, not how it works on a regular basis. yes, you -=could=- para someone with a 70 hp stab 3 times on 3 consecutive ticks.. conceiveably. Anyone remember doing that before? bet the answer would be differant if I asked for hands on 3 consecutive wfws. I know that perc affects a wider range of skills, success/fails and such than some stats, but it's soooooo unpredictable and streaky. I remember fighting a con augmenter with a really heavy stick once and having 2 bow shots and 2 backstabs dodged, even 'firing wide' and missing outright a couple times with the shooting as well. That makes sense if your fighting another sniper, but I found myself wondering how on earth he had enough dex/perc to do all that with high con/str and augment. Just an example to illustrate how frustrating it is to end up shooting craps when using your main fight skills. Course, I have also parad other snipers multiple times in the same fight once or twice before too, point is that the char type and their stats don't really give you a good idea of weather or not your skills will be effective the way they do for non perc. The mind diff bonus for mages on the stun spell (not to pick on it again, but a very good example) is so huge that my 60 mind mage regularly uses that one on noncasters |U6 whistle

From: if bs or even kick worked like that it would be considered grosly overpowered yet after all these years of seeing folks say this same thing on boards about dam spells I can't even think of an response on the matter. (I tend to read the boards sporatically and have a bad memmory, though, so that could just be me) Add to that the very short lag on failed/sunk spells and the scale tips even further, as with skills you are charged the full lag regardless of weather or not you are successful. Er.. bash, yeah, but still a 2 round lag. I get that it requires mana to cast so that's a - and all but if kick cost mv points, never missed and was not dodgeable i'd still go jackie chan on some mofos with my fighter. imagine that.. then add about 30 damage and you got yourself cause magic. Stun is tumbleable, why not other spells? oh yeah, that spanish-dudes take on the sniper pro/con thing seems to be how folks in charge look at it. They see what could -=POTENTIALLY=- be inflicted on a high perc guys target, not how it works on a regular basis. yes, you -=could=- para someone with a 70 hp stab 3 times on 3 consecutive ticks.. conceiveably. Anyone remember doing that before? bet the answer would be differant if I asked for hands on 3 consecutive wfws. I know that perc affects a wider range of skills, success/fails and such than some stats, but it's soooooo unpredictable and streaky. I remember fighting a con augmenter with a really heavy stick once and having 2 bow shots and 2 backstabs dodged, even 'firing wide' and missing outright a couple times with the shooting as well. That makes sense if your fighting another sniper, but I found myself wondering how on earth he had enough dex/perc to do all that with high con/str and augment. Just an example to illustrate how frustrating it is to end up shooting craps when using your main fight skills. Course, I have also parad other snipers multiple times in the same fight once or twice before too, point is that the char type and their stats don't really give you a good idea of weather or not your skills will be effective the way they do for non perc. The mind diff bonus for mages on the stun spell (not to pick on it again, but a very good example) is so huge that my 60 mind mage regularly uses that one on noncasters |U6 whistle

From: if bs or even kick worked like that it would be considered grosly overpowered yet after all these years of seeing folks say this same thing on boards about dam spells I can't even think of an response on the matter. (I tend to read the boards sporatically and have a bad memmory, though, so that could just be me) Add to that the very short lag on failed/sunk spells and the scale tips even further, as with skills you are charged the full lag regardless of weather or not you are successful. Er.. bash, yeah, but still a 2 round lag. I get that it requires mana to cast so that's a - and all but if kick cost mv points, never missed and was not dodgeable i'd still go jackie chan on some mofos with my fighter. imagine that.. then add about 30 damage and you got yourself cause magic. Stun is tumbleable, why not other spells? oh yeah, that spanish-dudes take on the sniper pro/con thing seems to be how folks in charge look at it. They see what could -=POTENTIALLY=- be inflicted on a high perc guys target, not how it works on a regular basis. yes, you -=could=- para someone with a 70 hp stab 3 times on 3 consecutive ticks.. conceiveably. Anyone remember doing that before? bet the answer would be differant if I asked for hands on 3 consecutive wfws. I know that perc affects a wider range of skills, success/fails and such than some stats, but it's soooooo unpredictable and streaky. I remember fighting a con augmenter with a really heavy stick once and having 2 bow shots and 2 backstabs dodged, even 'firing wide' and missing outright a couple times with the shooting as well. That makes sense if your fighting another sniper, but I found myself wondering how on earth he had enough dex/perc to do all that with high con/str and augment. Just an example to illustrate how frustrating it is to end up shooting craps when using your main fight skills. Course, I have also parad other snipers multiple times in the same fight once or twice before too, point is that the char type and their stats don't really give you a good idea of weather or not your skills will be effective the way they do for non perc. The mind diff bonus for mages on the stun spell (not to pick on it again, but a very good example) is so huge that my 60 mind mage regularly uses that one on noncasters |U6