Redemption Points and Skills|U6

Posted by Malicious on 02/28

From: Malicious Saturday, December 06 2003, 06:44PM Just as another thought, I know that as a switch off you couldn't lose something that you need in order to use something else without losing the ability to use the second skill. That would be something like what happens when the rules are changed and you could previously use a skill, but can't anymore I.E. You can't use it until you get the pre-reqs, or, with another point you can get rid of it. |U6

From: Chocorua Sunday, December 07 2003, 08:20AM THis has been discussed before on the discussion board and at QnA's. The web site has those discussions archived so I won't rehash them here. The short answer is that this is never going to be an option. Redeeming for skill reimbursment is not something that the staff feels is a good idea. Chocorua |U6

From: LadyAce Sunday, December 07 2003, 02:35PM Here's an example of the Q&A discussions Choc is referring to -- more can be found by typing redeem into the 'Seek' box on the web page: http://mud.legendmud.org/Community/lectures/QandA/2003/QA_09_04_03.html -LA |U6

From: Zandor Tuesday, December 09 2003, 01:24PM yes, the imm staff here feels that doing this by hand for players would be too much work, what with the thousands of players redeeming on a daily basis, and, coding such a player-friendly feature, i.e. automating it, is not in the spirit of the mud. what, you think this game is supposed to be fun? dumb newbie! yes of course you made mistakes, it's your first char! make a new. char. just because every major online rpg lets you re-do skills does not mean that we here at legend should jump on this. the players MUST suffer. this must be a rigid system. otherwise, too many players would come here and the mud would bog down..... |U6

From: LadyAce Tuesday, December 09 2003, 07:30PM It's not really so much a matter of it being too much work -- it's more that we don't think it's a good idea. A good idea is usually worth some work & time if we've got it :) We definitely have a different model than some other online environments you might list! "Everyone is doing it" isn't much of a rebuttal to all of the reasons listed in the threads and Q&A discussions of days past, though. - We aim to create a certain relationship between a player, a character, and a character's history on the mud -- we want to keep them linked and consistent, as much as possible. If someone can completely morph from one type of character into a completely different character, that relationship begins to break down, as does the identity of the character. - We place limits on the growth and types of growth a character can achieve. There are only so many levels and pracs available. This is has the effect of creating a few different dynamics -- it creates a set of people who are to some degree freed from the achievement cycle of xp-level-xp-level and can feel free to die, experiment with different techniques, might feel more like assisting others, and so forth. This also has the effect of keeping the gulf between new people and old people from being unreachably wide -- I personally find it discouraging to log in to a place where there are 10 chars on level 150 who have twice as much of everything and anything than anyone else. - When we make substantial changes to skills, we generally allow a limited type of reimbursal of what has been changed. Please take a look at some of the discussions listed on the web -- many more reasons we're reluctant to implement this type of a system are listed there. Ultimately, a system which let people change a skill or two max probably would not violate the principles and reasoning outlined in all the discussions of time past, but it would be so filled with balance issues and safeguards and troubles that I don't think the idea has a lot of resonance right now. Plus, we have to keep an eye on the good 'ol slippery slope -- the minute we make a decision about anything regarding numbers, we have to be mindful that we're not falling into an endless cycle of number inflation. I don't think it's fair to say we're rigid, but I think there's something to be said for not letting the basic constraints change all around. One change can have a powerful ripple, creating the needs for other changes, and then you find you've changed too far and now the original change needs to be increased to make up for it.... Well, enough of me spamming at you :_) -LA |U6

From: Zandor Tuesday, December 09 2003, 08:21PM yes i have heard the arguements LA, i just find them fundamentally flawed. you (not you, the staff as a whole) want to create an enviroment where the progress of a character is somewhat constant, i.e. you can't unlearn mage skills and become a fighter toon. but, you gave a blanket chance to EVERY char in the p-file to do such. hrmm, okay. and then, the "standard imm responce" to a true new player making a mistake when building (leveling) a char up is to remake. okay, so i have a char deleted, and remake with the same name, and level up to 50. didn't this achieve the same, exact result? so the only true result of this is that you force a player to waste (this is my opinion here because leveling via kick/stand/kick/stand/sleep rince repeat is not fun nor challening to ME) thier playtime. i agree that some skills should be "hard", or without a way to un-learn them, skills suchs as iron will, chant, herblore, etc. and something tells me these are the same ones you would think, based on the recent new skills such as iron will -- strangely these are the "class" defining skills in a quote "classless" mud, but that's another topic. if you are new to legend, and learn shipbuilding and other skills hoping to be some sort of crafter class, a class that many online games support, you will un-doubtedly be disappointed. now is there a good reason that you cannot unlearn shipbuilding and pickup mend? none that i know. well, other than the fact that mend is incredibly powerful and a full group of menders would rock PD :) just my 2 cents but my guess is that the single most time consuming thing that the immort staff does, besides support the server and writing new code (talking PR/admin here) is to re-string stuff. btw, touching on another post up above, you can indeed have a 3c mage "disintegrate" strung items to move them to storage strings. how nice for 3c creates, how about a mort command for the rest of us? |U6

From: LadyAce Tuesday, December 09 2003, 09:25PM Actually, I wouldn't say that the standard response to a mistake is "remake" -- I think a good reply to an error would be to keep on despite it and keep rolling -- no one is perfect. Rather than getting too caught up in being one type of character, we encourage new folks in particular to explore with their first few characters and not worry if they're not the super best of one type or another. Doing otherwise would just set them up to be non-perfect in some other way. At any rate, I find I spend more time talking to people and working on events and such than I do processing restring requests -- those are super duper quick! -LA PS: if something is doable with a skill/spell, wouldn't we make that skill/spell useless if we put in a command that did the same thing? |U6

From: Kae Wednesday, December 10 2003, 03:56AM On a side note, wouldn't it be nice if we all could come up with more ideas for uses for the 'useless' spells and skills... |U6

From: Zandor Wednesday, December 10 2003, 07:54AM I agree with you on this point Kae, however past history has told me that despite many suggestions for the useless skills/spells to be changed, little does. I'll think of some suggestions and post a new thread later today ... P.S. in response to what LA said about the 3c create disintegrate spell, and making it useless -- it was NEVER intended to be a mort re-string to storage item spell, that was a side effect of other changes that went in when DTs stopped eating strings (making them very OOC imo). there is no reason that the rest of us morts shouldn't have this ability, heck i'd be happy with an NPC who did it for free. note: i hope this NPC isn't buried in an obscure area, i am thinking maybe the Leenan Sidhe would be a good choice, since she isn't on any xp runs etc etc etc. also i'll have to send a note to Marauder to see if he can implement this... |U6

From: Sandra Wednesday, December 10 2003, 08:58AM Actually, Zandor, we put in code to allow disintigrate restring to storage specifically because morts were asking for a way to do this themselves. It was a compromise that seems to be a pretty good one. :) |U6

From: Zandor Wednesday, December 10 2003, 02:39PM if you were going to put in the code to move strings to storage items, why not give it to everyone?????? |U6

From: Fortebraccio Wednesday, December 10 2003, 03:07PM Whilst I may see the rationale behind the decision of not letting people redeeem skills I must say that there could be some exceptions, ie inspire cannot be used anymore from non-liman should be reimbursed no matter what, it wad done automatically during a lapse of time but maybe now some players that weren't playng then now could get it reimbursed by using a redeem point. This would be not going against the principles of the game i think. NB i said i can see the rationale behind the decision of not letting redeem skills, but I don't agree with it. I actually would like too to see a systme where you could redeem useless skills, it would make much more sense rather than permaing and remaking and is not like you could redeem that many skills anyway. Maybe just putting a limit on which skills you could redeem would make the change more palatable. |U6

From: Sandra Wednesday, December 10 2003, 05:02PM I believe I said that using disintigrate in that manner was a compromise, didn't I? It allowed the feature put in but in a limited manner. On another note, asking Marauder to bot this feature is probably not the wisest choice. Nor is his actually botting it. -Sandra |U6

From: Kaine Wednesday, December 10 2003, 05:04PM I came up with a cleverly eloquent and persuasive argument that was finally going to win the imms over, and the discussion board ate it

From: mutter conspiracy

From: . Anyway, this reimbursal argument is often linked to redemption points which is always being shot down. Can we suggest any other ways to implement it that don't rely on xp and favouring old players, and allowing characters to completely change a skill set? Ingame quest? Once a year amnesty? Personally I don't think many players would be interested in changing a whole set, probably a couple (or 3

From: cough ironwill

From: ) at the most, but can we think of better ways of limiting it? Zandor's idea of only being able to replace a skill with one from the same 'family' was refreshingly new, and addresses the ooc argument of mages reappearing as fighters. I actually find not being able to change or learn new skills to be frustratingly ooc - how does a person go through all these mud years without 'forgetting' something they've learned previously, or picking up something new along the way? Kaine |U6

From: Zandor Thursday, December 11 2003, 09:52AM this clearly seems to be something player base wants, and if done correctly would be neither unbalancing or breaking with the spirit of the mud (IMO). i guess its up to the imms now to decide the direction they want to take. Sandra, as for marauder botting this, the suggestion has already been made, and it's up to him if he implements it. i can't see this breaking any rule that he doesn't already "infringe" on. |U6

From: Sandra Thursday, December 11 2003, 10:44AM And the first time that somebody gives somebody else's item to Marauder to disintigrate, should the person that suggested he bot the feature also get punished along with him? ;) -Sandra |U6

From: Vyper Thursday, December 11 2003, 02:37PM you can give away owned items now? when was this implemented? |U6

From: Sandra Thursday, December 11 2003, 02:53PM Nope, you can't give away owned items. But that doesn't stop the problem from existing. |U6

From: Mielikki Thursday, December 11 2003, 05:20PM Please dont tell marauder that he'll end up disentigrating all his own eq the moement he's foolish enough to put it in.

From: beg Marauder

From: Mielikki -she who will happily have Marauder disentigrate all his eq..... |U6

From: Stain Thursday, December 11 2003, 10:56PM I have been known to beat a few dead horses myself, but I tend to stop when I run outta corpse, ya know? This post is mostly you and the imms goin' back and forth there, Zandor, so invoking the will of the player base is a bit cheesy, way I see it. I have an app- riciation for sarcasm as well, but you can only exagerate so far before you look fully immature and whiney. I like the idea personally , but I think it's a pretty minor thing to get your pantys in a bunch over. That being said, the thing I like about the idea is that it would give an incentive for players to keep their chars and actually be active with them past 50. Strings/pretitles are cool, but from a pk perspective I honestly don't spend the HUGE chunk of time necessary for a noncaster type to xp for 25 mil. I feel that if keeping your chars active and runnin' after 50 had an incentive that actually affected game play then pk chars wouldn't be deleted/permad to rebuild so often and clans wouldn't go dormant as much. Rping would actually make sense a bit more. I can't count the number of times a feud has started and due to the disposability of chars the other guy(s) just drop off the face of the earth and make a new ones. I would consider a chance to swap a skill or two or maybe learn a new useful one worth the mobkill time. Boredom with the current char is a big factor in delete/remaking. Maybe there could be some kind of SLIGHT skill boost for every 50 mil xp you acheive, like chances of landing skills increas by 1% or something. Maybe add 5 hps of dam to a spell or subtract 1 or 2 mp from the mana cost for a specific spell, sorta like you 'get' how it works just a bit better after using the same thing so long. Figured i'd put a few screwbrain ideas out here, maybe somethin will inspire a doable one in on of you imms (or actually be doable itself?) |U6

From: LadyAce Friday, December 12 2003, 06:22PM I think that extending the fun of the game past 50 is important, and it's something that we try to do and will keep on trying to do. But I think it's important to extend the fun of 50 in ways that don't necessarily make characters better -- just make them more fun/interesting. I don't think the world would come to an end if a shipbuilding fisherman gave up the sea and became a land-loving tailor and furrier, but I wouldn't want to see ubercharacters created where a newly minted 50 is disadvantaged by the code itself, rather than by their knowledge, strategy, priorities, creativity, etc. Fighting boosts & extra pracs don't seem like the right way to go, to me, if we're going to keep to a 50 level system. If we're going to create a system where really what we have are 60 levels, we should just say that -- except whoops, then we'll all get bored at 50, and there'll be 70 levels, and... well, you see where I'm going, I just think it's funny to think about. I'd rather see characters transition into a different relationship with the game -- experimenting more, honing their knowledge, helping others, meeting fun people and having more adventures, racking up new accomplishments in areas other than yet-another-level. This is all just my opinion, and I only speak for me. -LA |U6

From: Vyper Saturday, December 13 2003, 12:51AM i am in agreement with ladyace, building a toon should be more than the 10 day xp hike to 50. so whats left to build on a char then, besides xp/coupons/rp? well, and dont say skilltrees, but a cool crafting system would be huge. advanced forge, tailor ... let players make q5 weapons and +5 stat items ... not just anything, but come up with whats missing and put some of the required ingredients on various semi-hard lvl 50 mobs ... |U6

From: Stain Saturday, December 13 2003, 05:02PM Like I was sayin', just some half cooked ideas there, hopin' maybe somebody would get a good idea from it. Vypers crafting idea is pretty good, I think it'd ad something positive to the game. I wasn't thinking like adding levels or anything, or give an unfair advantage making 'uber 50's' with the skill boost idea there but I can see your point there. I was suggesting something benificial, yet too minor to elevate one char over others. Kinda like the %skill thing they had on a mud I tried for a bit, only on a much smaller scale. Like I say this was kinda a flash in my head I really didn't think much about before posting :P Just sayin' it would be nice if there were something could be done to encourage folks to keep their chars around a bit longer. Some kind of incentive to do stuff with your characters after 50. |U6

From: Rufus Saturday, December 20 2003, 09:55PM I haven't read all the appends on this, only a few. I wrote the original code of redemptions with the idea of small things like an extra hp roll (1-4 hps), or mana (same range). The original code for it had a number of these things. Not stats because, really, with enough determination, you could gain a significant stat advantage over someone else. But nice little rewards. There were some other things... hrm, I can't quite remember, maybe a pretitle, but I don't think those were prolific yet. Most of my original ideas, even if you'd amassed however many millions of xp it takes to top out the xp and get all the redemption points, were only minor advantages over a player new to the level 50 arena. But then some other folks got ahold of it. Pretitles, post titles, what the hell else can you get with the redemption crap nowadays? I don't know, I haven't looked in years. Don't really care to, since the system's only really a shell of its former self. Pretitles, fancy dancy strings, rp strings, non color strings, this-strings, that strings... well, they might matter to the 3 and a half people that enjoy roleplaying on a constant basis... honestly not my style of game, never was, never will be. But one thing I can tell you... I've already fought this fight, this attempting to actually make redemptions meaningful to the majority of the playerbase. I fought that fight before they ever saw the light of day on the main mud. In the end, I had to give up. I'm not going to point fingers at who was ultimately responsible for the decision... though I imagine most of you could probably guess. Do what I did... give up, enjoy the game as is, and pretend the redemption system never existed. -Rufus |U6

From: Kae Sunday, December 21 2003, 09:37AM I am one of the 3 and a half people who enjoy RP on a constant basis, but I'd like to point out for good measure that I'm not a coder, and the redemption point discussion predates me. |U6

From: Xena Sunday, December 21 2003, 10:00AM I'm another one of those 3 and a half people who enjoy RP on a constant basis, basis, though for whatever reason, I seem to either give my coupons away when I get them, or sell them. Though I do have a bunch of items strung, I tend to think of my friends before myself. Not that any of that had anything to do with the original post. I'm just putting in my one cent ;) Xena |U6

From: Malicious Monday, January 05 2004, 06:35PM The biggest reason I put this on was because when you first start this game you kinda decide what you really want to be, or do. I wanted to be a mage. Thus, I am, but I got skills that the description on them didn't explain that it is the same as a spell I all ready have. Also, when you change skills so that they are not even usable but don't automatically give back that practice session, I think there should be some way to get that back. So, as per someone's request, I think Kae's. Eloquence should do something more, maybe when you speak or discuss to a specific mob in a specific way you get something out of it. So far I haven't seen it, and I have tried quite a few times. Maybe just on the wrong mobs I do a lot of roleplaying when I can, and the coupons aren't that big of a thing for me the only way I usually get coupons is when I buy them... I just think that perhaps, there should be a way to get back some skills that don't really match your character class in any way and you haven't used in over a year. Kinda like speaking another language you might be able to remember a few words, but if you don't speak it for 20 years you probably aren't still fluent. You might remember a few words, but you can't actually carry on a conversation. As for the skills that match the spells, I have used them a few times, until I realized they were the same. I don't want anyone to think that I dislike Legend. I really do, I am just trying to get some things that really bother me fixed I am more than willing to give suggestions, but I rarely get listened to on them anyway. I also think that a major problem on this game is the constant balancing any roleplaying game I have ever played has unbalances. There is always someone that can take out someone else. D&D is the thief can take out the mage and the mage takes out the fighter, but the fighter takes out the thief. Which actually balances, just not directly. Sorry about all the huge amounts of spamming comments. -Malicious |U6

From: Archaon Friday, February 20 2004, 12:42AM

From: grumble

From: shouldn't they have the same % chance of success as everyone else? As for fighters being gimped, I think I'll have to agree on that even though I don't do much anymore. Oh and Sandra I was pointing out that you couldnt REMOVE effects to yourself with a bow, not apply them. We aren't talking about who should apply the effects, but how we take them off. Perhaps to balance it a bit have an increase in resistance to assorted spell type things (eg, poison, blind) with the Iron Will skill. Surely that would work? "My will is so strong that I will fight this poison away with shear force of WILL!" Also if not already perhaps have a bonus resistance to high spi and to a lesser degree (whether smaller resistance or to fewer effects) con. As for the newbie side of things... Some newbie asked me in a tell the other day if they could rent off bleeding. I don't know what level they were, but as a new char

From: I

From: find that I can find lots of assorted things that make me bleed. Yes there is the bandage skill, but newbies won't know much if anything about that. Course these permanant effects just make people fouling wells just that bit more annoying, ESPICIALLY when its the cup at well o trust. But that gives a reason for purify, a skill that was previously useless. Of course, hardly anyone KNOWS purify, but that just promotes player interaction. Oh wait, that doesn't really work when you log on and there are only 5 people online all doing their own thing, not paying attention to anything, or even if they were, don't want to alt or don't have an alt with that certian skill. So I guess I should just change countries eh? In short, while it has it's percs, I think some things mainly the PK side AND the newbie side need ironing out. Cause I know if I tried to PK without a mage now I'd just die, not being able to rent any form of vials, and even if I could I wouldn't be able to rent the amount required (3 or 4, thats 2k rent that could be spent better elsewhere). Hey thats the longest thing I've written on a board! Arch |U6

From: Kaine Saturday, February 28 2004, 05:10PM Another interesting idea for skill reimbursements was mentioned by Kaige at the last Q&A - that unused skills would be 'forgotten' by a character after a set period of time, and so earns back a skill practice. It was suggested that this would need to be a RL time period, not game time, which seems sensible enough to me. This was a feature slated for skill trees, but with all the new skills coming in, maybe it could be given some serious consideration? It was only lightly touched on at Q&A, I'd really like to hear a bit more of the for and against here. I'm for (if you couldn't already guess) Kaine |U6

From: Kaige Saturday, February 28 2004, 08:41PM I don't know if it'd be coming sooner than the rest of the ideas that it was tied to in skill trees. Mostly I was just mentioning that it was something that we'd thought of, but that it wasn't any where near a front burner. Sorry to tease. -Kaige |U6