It's just a tiny epic ... really|U6

Posted by Flower on 09/08

From: ponder

From: It could of course be argued that I simply matured, but hell I still laugh when I think of hmm I don't think I'll name names. ;) In any case, I -can- say that what cinched it for me was the immortal staff. Now by that I don't mean the individuals, but rather the attitude that was being presented to the mortal community. I found that it was becoming almost impossible to find an imm to talk to for one, because even when 10 were signed on, there would only be maybe one or two who were visible, and even those were not always at keyboard or in window. There was at least one new imm who I actually had to report for breaking the rules on their mort in an interaction with myself and others. When players brought up problems where they disagreed with the opinion of one imm or another, there were numerous cases where the immortals involved reacted very rudely even when the mortal was being polite. Even when I -did- have an opinion as to the state of things, I refused to post about it and only talked it over with certain imms I knew could be objective even if it was their project that was being argued about because anyone who stuck their heads up were having them chopped off. It was almost as though disagreeing with an imm even politely was becoming against the rules. I understand that in a lot of cases the mortal involved was confrontational but .. hmm let's put it this way. If you're scolding a child and the child gets red-faced and yells "you're stupid!" is it really appropriate to yell "So are you!" and lock them in their room? I have been an imm on other muds and am in fact an imm elsewhere currently and I have to say I am a stickler for rules. I believe they should be enforced and I have in my capacity as an Imm clashed with players and received flames in the process. That being said, I stopped playing Legend because I cannot be a part of a community where people who are in positions of power become so cynical and busy that they forgo common courtesy to the playerbase. I left before the incidents that have been talked about in previous posts precisely because I saw where things were going and knew such incidents were going to happen. I love Legend and always will, it is -because- I loved the game and the place and the memories that I left, because I couldn't stand to watch where it was going. So what was the purpose of this post? In truth I'm not really sure. Perhaps it's my way of feeling less guilty for abandoning the MUD I loved for so long without speaking my mind. Mostly though I'm hoping that the imms will look and see that there are people who -do- have good histories and who have played here a long time who are simply asking you to take a step back from being offended and truly look at the relationship between mortals and immortals at the moment. It isn't just a few troublemakers protesting warnings anymore, it's dedicated members of the playerbase who have devoted years of their lives, the same way you have, to making this mud a better place. With love and fond wishes for all, -Flower's player |U6

From: Sorscha Monday, September 01 2003, 12:30AM Thank you for your honesty. I feel it too, but am hoping things will get better and on that chance, I hang on. |U6

From: Sandman Monday, September 01 2003, 02:25AM Well said, and not just cuz im an imm where you are too =p. I seem to have done the same... But I have to say I definitely am more vocal when I feel im being mistreated in any way, shape, or form. I can sometimes sound like a complete ass, or what some would call a normal teenager on a mud, tho I sadly am older =p. Yeah I take things to heart a bit more, and when angry im not the best person around... but knowing me, if the conversation is mature, I tend to stay mature. Sometimes it just seems the only way to get something into someone's head is to act like them.. anyway yeah.. enough of me rambling.. just wanted to say I can see where you coming from in your post. Hopefully things will turn around, a friendly atmosphere is always a plus :). Sandman et all |U6

From: Archaon Monday, September 01 2003, 09:01AM Ohhhh, slow fade out. Sounds like whats happening to me. Oh, so does the no one seeming to notice. Oh, guess I'm not alone then... |U6

From: Chocorua Monday, September 01 2003, 12:24PM disagreeing with immortals isn't even close to being seen as a rule violation. I'd encourage it because most of the immortal staff as human (wiht a few exceptions that i'll leave up to speculation) but the manner in which people choose to disagree can come into conflict with the immortal staff. Yes the staff should always be professional and courteous. What you all have to realise is that you are ONLY seeing the public side of things that are going on when you feel that an imm is being unreasonable and rude to someone. This in no way excuses rude behavior but when you take half of a conversation and later marry it with the version of the story you get from someone who might have talked to someone involved you never truely understand what went on. I completely agree that the immortal staff on legend has changed it's attitude and the way it deals with things over the years. That is the nature of the beast. I would like to ask that people who have problem with individual imms take it up with them or me wither in person (sorta) online or in mudmail/emails. If all you want to do is feel like a victim and not contribute to a solution there is not a lot that the imm staff can do about it except take a defensive position and hold it. If you see a problem atleast point it out to someone who can do soemthing about it and bring along any suggestions you ight have to fix it. Now here is a VERY important point to go along with that. Just because you propose a solution doesn't mean it's teh best or even viable so don't be offended if it doesn't get implemented. that is also the nature of the beast that is a community project. CHocorua |U6

From: Dashiva Tuesday, September 02 2003, 03:23AM you people make me want to cry I understand flower's fading away thing though mine wasn't imms but just a general feeling of moving on legend gives everyone somthing, and most give somthing back it's funny how a place like this can live on in your life like a weed when you think you've moved on what a big run on sentance that was! legend gave me a lot of thrills and kept me up way to late a lot of nites. I still miss being here time to time but like I said, it's gave me so many good friends who I sadly do not talk to very much anymore some people just move on in life |U6

From: Ganymede Sunday, September 07 2003, 01:48AM As another member of Flower's latter group, I feel compelled to share an experience I've had recently. I have also kinda faded out, for many reasons both related and unrelated directly to Legend. Bottom line, it doesn't hold my interest the way it did in 1994 or even 2000. Since leaving, I also have played other muds, and I've realized some interesting things about Legend. One mud in particular has very little visible rule enforcement by imms. That's not to say there aren't strict rules...there are. It's just that the players there are far less inclined to break them. Players are very protective of their gameplay experience, to the point where I have yet to witness any need for immortal intervention in several months of play. It's made very clear from the beginning that if you aren't going to play right, just move along. Why are these players so different from Legend's? I am left to conclude that Legend somehow courts a type of player who is less interested in the community aspects of mudding. Speaking of immortal intervention, that's another thing I've realized sets Legend apart. Several other muds I've been to have imm staffs who operate largely behind the scenes. Compared to those, Legend seems like "The Immortal Show". Throughout my years here, conflicts between morts and imms, and sometimes even between imms, have been very public. Imms always seem to be in the spotlight on Legend more than on any other mud I've been to since. One look at the boards gives the impression that the imms are indeed a bigger part of the community than the regular players. How this got to be this way, I don't know...maybe it's a degree of self-indulgence by the imms, or maybe it's just tradition here. But I think a change in that regard would do Legend good. Legend's a great mud with many positive qualities, and like Flower I'll always look fondly back on my time here. But the players and immortals both seem to lend themselves continually to an atmosphere of tension and strife, and those are things I come online partly to get away from. Ganymede's player |U6

From: Chocorua Sunday, September 07 2003, 11:42AM I have to agree that legend does seem to carry a certain number of players both past and present who would rather not follow the rules that have been created to protect the community. I think that is something that has slowly gotten more and more the case since the early days on Legend and comes with growth in an environment where we don't just toss people out the door. Any number of people will know my opinion on that subject but from the beginning we have kept to the theory that we want/need players and that everyone deserves teh same fair chance to shape up. Over the years we have had to close our doors to very few. I think that if we had been a bit stricter and less tolerant of some of the abuse that has happened that there very well might be a different atmosphere .. I just can't say if that would be a dead (no real players and no energy) or more friendly atmosphere. As far as teh immortal involvement ... on Legend that is just how it has always been. The immortal staff has always been encouraged to be known and to get involved with the community. I don't think that is a mistake. I think that coupled with the above observations about rule breakers makes for a very touchy situation. I suspect that if we removed the element of legend that had a problem with authority and rules in general that the immortal involvement in the community would be far more positive. I also don't see how we could make a chance like this to the existing structure. It would be a VERY hard sell to be even more strict with the rules and also to maintain the high quality of players we have. Some of our most notorious rule breakers have also been responsible for testing the gaming engine that we are developing to it's limits. Removing them now might just set us back 5 years on our ability to test changes. My point in all this? Boiled down from the previous post and mine ... legend tolerates more bad behavior than I think we should and that coupled with the imm staff's egomaniac approach to being involved makes it a very hard situation to make right. Chocorua |U6

From: LadyAce Monday, September 08 2003, 03:31PM I definitely appreciate the thoughts & feedback shared on these threads, and have been turning the ideas in my mind (and will go on doing so...!). In particular, I was thinking about the use of boards, and the level of imm involvement on them, and the idea of Legend as "the immortal show. I know that when imms don't respond to board posts, we often hear that players would like to hear more from us. And, when we're not active in speaking on channels or putting together events, we hear about that, too. I haven't gone to a large number of other muds, but the few I've visited have had widely varying levels of imm involvement -- on one, it was as if there were no immortals at all, you were online to play a set game, and it might get upgrades every so often. On another, I had an imm interrupt me while I was solving a quest and try to tell me how to do it, and that I was doing it wrong... Others, the imms tended to be visible, saying things now and then, doing events or organizing various things, etc. So it seems like there are a lot of models that work -- and while there may be many different models that work, not every model works for everyone. One element about the level of imm/player interaction on Legend is the fact that many players are very engaged with sharing ideas and suggestions and feedback, and the imms are engaged with responding to it. It's the sort of thing that could always be better -- lack of time, lack of time! -- but it's also one of the primary reasons that the imms tend to be so visible -- there's a pull from players to have interactions. As far as level of activity in community-building more generally -- expectations differ widely there as well. I think it is most excellent when interactions develop without immortal involvement -- I just sit back and cheer and cheer :). On the other hand, imm involvement seems to be the sort of thing that some people appreciate -- having someone to get mobs involved, provide other resources & encouragement, help with publicity, etc. if there's an event planned, for example. We're also in a good position to be 'noticers of themes' -- a certain kind of question coming up often, a certain person having a hard time figuring out how to get started -- since we're not fighting, walking, talking to mobs, etc. we tend to notice themes emerging on channels, or in logins -- and all of that boils down to extra services that wouldn't be provided if we weren't here to provide them. At any rate, I'm very interested to hear what everyone has to say about this -- do you want to see more of us, less of us, have different styles of interactions with us? What sorts of tools might be of use to players in their own community-building? Self-forming clans were meant to help with that, what other mechanisms strike you as useful? Thanks, LA |U6