Ok, since Kae seems so upset by my assumption (and yet quite willing
to make plenty of her own) I shall explain the reasoning on which
they're based.
Assumption #1 Bart warned the newbie
Choc stated in his post 'I think the person who did [warn them]
had been visible at the time'. And Cheyla in hers 'the immortal that
issued the warning WAS visible'. Bart was the only visible imm on
at the time, hence Bart warned the newbie.
BTW, if it hasn't been blindingly obvious from our previous posts,
none of us appear to have a problem with the newbie actually being
warned, we have a problem with the actions of the invis imm(s).
Assumption #2 Cheyla was in invis imm
Well, I'll admit this one is a little bit more of a gut feeling.
Lets see how I intimated it from the posts. Well, since Cheyla
CHOSE to put in her thoughts on this discussion, it does tend to
suggest she has some vested interest in this. In her first post,
she seems quite sure of what actually happened, she emphasized it
quite a lot. And yet, in her second post she 'was around briefly
for the subsequent chats'. Sounds rather well, vague. Yes, I'm
reading between the lines here, but nowhere nearly as bad as Kae's
useless usage of analogy would like to suggest.
Basically, I saw the incident, read Dolly's original post and then
the blathering from the imms and was rather incensed. By the way,
feel free at any time to deny it was Cheyla, I'll be happy to put
forward an apology.
Assumption #3 The newbie was a new player
Maybe they'd visited legend briefly before, but as far as I'm
concerned, they were a new player.
And now for the next part of my rebuttal;
Choc asks 'how is it you know they were mistreated by an invis
imm?'
We saw it, duh!
and also 'since when is it your [being the players] to pass
judgment?'
When your [being the invis imm(s)] lack of care for us gets to the
point your actions cause us to lose a potential acquisition to
our player base. If you haven't noticed, this is a game and a game
well, needs players and many among us go out of their way to
encourage new players.
And now, let's move onto Kae, who feels the need to put in her
opinion on this matter despite not being an admin imm nor apparently
around at the time. Let's see, ah yes, 'valid issue' I think is
the term she used. I think we, as a player base, have a right to
feel angry and upset about this incident. There is a general lack
of care for the player base coming from certain imm factions at the
moment, this incident being just one example. It comes down to the
fact the WHOEVER the invis imm was, they were wrong! How about
instead of starting a flame war you accuse us of starting you could
respond to Dolly's post with something like, 'Yes, this incident
was regrettable, the warning was already being dealt with when
someone unaware of what was going on joined in and scared this
person off. We're sorry about this. Thanks.'
Also, stop blaming the newbie for dropping link.
I'm going to ignore your childish jibes about being childish and
a waste of bandwidth.
Based on guesswork? well yes, but I am capable of READING FOR
COMPREHENSION. I did, and by the severity of your response I'm
guessing I was pretty darn close.
What do I mean by abuse? Did I say that? I don't think so! I called
the invis imm (who I am still going to assume was Cheyla) rather
rude. And accused them of jumping down the newbie's throat. Something
I still state they did, even though I'm not a lame logger so I
cannot now prove it. Since, you obviously have a log, perhaps
you'd like to post it in its entirety rather than selectively
quoting it so we can all decide for ourselves.
And so, as we draw to the end of the incredibly long post, let me
tell you about the need for revolution and why I felt the need to
respond. I was present for this incident, I saw it and saw how
wrong it was. I saw Dolly's post, and agreed with it mostly. I then
saw Choc and Cheyla's posts and from the information within them
I understood a bit more of what happened. More importantly, I
recognized the misinformation supplied within them and felt the
need to put forward another view of history. Like, the fact that
this newbie ACCIDENTLY chatted and apologized, a fact which appeared
to have got lost! Choc: 'Only the players complaint and a reminder
to read the rules' wrong, wrong, wrong!
I felt the need to post, even though I'm normally such a good little
player, although Kae, how you know that is beyond me since I would
appear to be only level 1. What has seemed to have got lost is
that this is a gaming community and we need both players and
immortals. The current lack of respect being shown to the player
base by some of the immortals is a worry and I fear that we will
lose players because of it, you've almost lost me. Warnings are
often deserved, we all get tired, forget, are too wasted, etc to
function properly every now and then. I have NO problem with
warnings, I have a problem with the attitude rather aptly displayed
by the immortal staff in response to Dolly's original post.
And Choc, as to admin always coming under fire.. well duh! isn't
your job to administer the player base? Of course you're going to
come under fire. However your attitude displayed in such comments
as 'supposed newbie' are rather less than helpful. And how about
whining 'but when someone immediately jumps to the defensive',
admin is conflict resolution, someone being defensive is something
YOU should be able to handle. And by the way, talking about always
jumping to a defensive position.. ahem!
This could have been entirely avoided by apologizing for you mistakes
like any good manager would do, instead YOU started a flame war,
not us.
Regards,
The apparently old player with a good admin record.
Gripe
|U6
From: Kae
Sunday, August 31 2003, 06:07AM
[Chat] Cyrene: Ok, why does the old warrior continue to block my
path when I have given him coins?
[Chat] Someone: he's really senile and doesn't remember you giving
him any?
[Chat] Cyrene: Bleh. I have him five and now I only have 1 left.
[Chat] Cyrene: Here brat, brat, braaaat.... -sigh-
Chat] Dolly: you might need to find a local newbie, and sell the
newbie for some funds
[Chat] Cyrene: I am a local newbie. :(
[Chat] Dolly: find a newer newbie to sell!
[Chat] Sephia: sell yourself to the tavern men!
[Chat] Cyrene: you're kidding? heh.
[Chat] Dolly: Tika's already got that tavern covered
[Chat]: Sephia nods her agreement with Cyrene.
[Chat]: An aura of heavenly light appears above Sephia's head.
[Chat] Cyrene: :notes the horns peeking from behind Sephia's head...
[Chat]: Sephia grins evilly.
[Chat] Cyrene: (grin)
[Chat] Cyrene: I have been told to learn 'vina', I must visit an [mob name]...
but someone else has said that no, there is someone in this town who
can teach me this word. Can someone help me discover which is correct?
[Chat] Kundry: errrr don't say all that on chat
[Chat] Cyrene: Er, I'm new and haven't given anyone anything. I was
asking to find out what to believe of what was given me. Innocent mistake.
Warning is unexpected and seems a tad harsh.
[Chat] Cyrene: drat. mischannel.
[Chat] Someone: read help rules, please
[Chat]: Monkeygirl waves hello to the world!
[Chat]: Wib beeps Monkeygirl on the nose.
[Chat]: Pitchfork waves to Monkeygirl.
[Chat]: Monkeygirl beams at Wib inquiringly.
[Chat] Cyrene: I did. I wasn't giving information. I was asking for
it. Sorry to see no one seems to comprehend the difference.
I'm still eager to hear where exactly the invisible immortal was abusive
and out of bounds.
|U6
From: Chocorua
Sunday, August 31 2003, 12:16PM
not sure why this needed a new post but I will respond
to a couple points here.
Yes it is my job as head admin to deal with
the administrative troubles of legend and more
often than not that ends up in some kind of confrontation. Sadly that is
true. I don't think that it needs to be that way
and contrary to the general tone of these threads I don't go
out of my way to cause confrontation or be defensive.
As far as the new player being driven away, that is
regrettable. I feel sorry that a reminder to read the
rules was offensive to them enough to make them drop
link and never return. Oddly enough the response that
it was a mischannel was probably being typed at teh same time as
the reminder about the rules and when you take into
account that there could be lag on one side or the
other. I still don't think that the
invis imm's comment to read the rules was out of line.
Now if it is all simply because the person was invisible then
we are dealing with an entirely different set of reasns to be
upset. Immortals will be on and invisible at times and we
will at times use chat. Sometimes we might even not remember
that we are invisible before making a comment that we don't
expect to be controversial. It is every so popular
to remind me and the imm staff that we are dealing
with people (humans for the most part i suspect) on the
other side of the link. That goes both ways and someone who
would rather drop link and avoid the entire situation perhaps
made the right decision for them and we are here now
participating in this holy quest to rid the realm of injustice
without t anyone to defend.
anyhow I know my view points are rarely popular. But remember when
you are on an online game no matter how hard you try to be anonymous
it's unlikely to be successful. Patterns always emergy giving you
away. It is also entirely likely that this whole mess we are dealing
with now is really about something entirely different.
yes i know that last paragraph was nonsense... each sentence has an intended
audience. if they read it they will now who they are.
Chocorua
|U6
From: Sandra
Sunday, August 31 2003, 12:58PM
Ok, I'm going to try to make sense out of all of this so forgive
me if I go off on some tangent.
First, I wasn't here when all of the original incident happened.
I only found out about it by reading Dolly's original post. Then,
of course, I read the several appends. Wondering what went on to
cause all of this, I talked with a player or two that was there
at the time. Then I talked with some immorts that were also there,
and gained 2 copies of the chats that occurred. So, with all of this
information in tow, I pondered it for a day and here I am posting.
I'm going to be rather blunt and unbiased in this post, this may offend some
people, and it may not. I'll apologize in advance for that now.
Ok, with that over with, let us get to the juicy stuff.
I feel bad that the newbie in question decided to drop link and
leave the mud due to a verbal warning and obvious misunderstanding
of the situation. I had a chance to meet said newbie, and was rather
fond of her and her ambitious experimentations and explorations of our
little world. Do I think that the situation could have been handled
differently? Sure. There are always a number of ways to handle any
given situation. Do I think that it was handled wrong? Not really, save
one thing(and I'm just as guilty as the next immort for this). Instead
of chatting, a tell should have been sent and should have been done while
visable. In our rush to point out mistakes, we often forget that new people
ARE new people, and don't know who Someone is, or feel threatened when
the Big Guy chats something at us. It's something that most of the
immortal staff needs to remember, and while we do try, we often forget
in the rush of doing whatever we're doing OOW flipping in just in time
to see a problem and tossing out a short answer that's really not meant
as mean but may be seen that way. I do believe that we will work on that.
The admin department is ALWAYS going to be seen as the bad guys. It's a
fact of life here, just as is leveling, dying, dting and whatever else.
While the admin staff is very aware of this, it still takes its toll on
them. Take it from a former Head Admin that couldn't wait to step down
after 2 years. Almost instinctively, you'll find them on the defensive.
Is that how it should be? Nope. But it's a hard habit to change. Take the
police as an example, since it's been used in previous appends.
So anyway, back to the situation that's started this all. One thing
missing at the end of Kae's log in this post is that at the end of it
the newbie dropped link. I understand that there was a comment or two
after this, but the newbie was already gone and the immort had it already
typed out, etc etc. I don't know if said newbie was given an explanation
of the verbal warning she received before she lost link. She was told,
obviously, to read Help Rules, which does lead to an explanation of
warnings.
Strangely, I'm glad that these posts were put on the board. It does
give the imm staff a chance to reflect on how they handle situations,
and occasionally we need that. However(you knew there would be one, didn't you?),
the posts quickly turned harsh, from both sides, and that is where
the mistakes begin. EVERYONE should take care in their posting. Yes,
this includes me as I know I've been rather harsh in some of my posts
in the past. And it's mainly the reason that I've not posted until now.
|U6
If you feel that someone on staff reacted wrongly, was out of line,
or just plain rude, stop for a minute before posting and make sure
that you aren't following the same path. This goes both ways, btw.
So anyway, to end this massive spewage of mine, let me just say that
it was a sad thing that the newbie decided to leave. I do wish that
she would come back, and hope that we've all learned from our mistakes
so that no others end up with the same fate. Think before you post,
if you feel that no matter what you post will be in anger, pull
one of us aside and bitch away for a while. Hell, I've listened to
quite a few players rant, and don't mind doing it if it'll help
calm a situation.
I hope I've offered something positive to the discussion.
Sandra
|U6
From: Nelson
Sunday, August 31 2003, 02:30PM
I don't want to get involved here. But is that the full log? :P I find
it hard to believe they would make a comment like they did (A fightin'
comment!) then just drop link before seeing what anybody said, or saying
anything more themselves. Looks like that whole thing was just picking
up and them BOOM! log ends.
|U6
From: Dolor
Sunday, August 31 2003, 04:41PM
Well, yeah, that's a fightin' comment at the end, but it can also be
read as a "Well, excuuuuuuse me!
From: slam door
From: " comment, too, so it makes
some sense to me. But then, that's me, and I'm nuts.
-Dolor.
|U6
From: LadyAce
Sunday, August 31 2003, 06:30PM
I was going to just post and say "me too!". Sandra did a great job
of conveying all the complexities and contradictions of this topic.
-LA
|U6
From: Jenna
Sunday, August 31 2003, 07:46PM
Ok,
Choc's found me out! I didn't go out of my way to hide who I was.
But those amongst you who know who I am will understand why I had
the need to make sure my opinions were perceived as only my own.
Which, BTW they are completely. I'm also amused to find I have
patterns of behavior other than squealing.
Kae, I never accused the invis imm of being abusive, I called them
rude. Please stop putting words into my mouth, or fingers as the
case may be. So, I raised a number of issues and you've chosen to
dump the log. Well, thanks for actually doing that, but it does
seem to be rather incomplete. The timing of the chats does not
show, and only those of us actually on are going to be aware of
that.
The invis imm was rude because they're comments were completely
unnecessary. That is, at least, my take on what was wrong with this
incident.
However, what has really brought down my ire, were the responses to
Dolly's post. You seemed to not understand why we are upset, I
explained, admittedly a little sarcastically, but really quite
nicely when it come down to it. The initial response to my post
WAS completely and utterly rude.
And why the new post? Well both Kae and Choc had so many questions
and assumptions to answer.. it ended up so terribly long and raised
several new issues I felt it deserved it.
I have a right to my opinions, and though I choose not to express
them most of the time, I choose to exercise my right to express
them now.
Jenna, who does have a Gripe
An now for my usage of analogy:
First year uni student is downloading mp3s, her account is suspended
and she comes to the help desk to find out what's happened. Tech
support person comes out, introduces themselves and starts to
explain what she's done wrong. During the course of the explanation,
another tech support person comes out, hears part of the conversation,
"I didn't know, is there a place I can read all these rules?", and
decides to throw in a comment "You should have read the Acceptable
Use Policy you signed!". Student bursts into tears and runs away.
Later, a student representative posts on a board about this incident
and management's response is "We didn't do anything wrong, she
should have read the rules."
|U6
From: Kae
Monday, September 01 2003, 04:24AM
It's the log as I have it. If there's something missing, by all means,
bring it forward. Maybe I'll finally find out what exactly it was
that was so rude.
It's worth noticing though, that my version of the log ends where
Cyrene dropped link. Which means that anything said after may possibly
be rude, but it's not something she would have heard.
|U6
From: Nelson
Monday, September 01 2003, 05:38AM
Thats basicliy administering that it was rode man
and whether the newb heard it or not they coulda and apparently
a lot of other people did and are pist about it. Maybe the imms
need to take sensitivity training man
man I got the munchies now
|U6
From: Archaon
Monday, September 01 2003, 08:50AM
hmmm, me's read most of this (ingoring some of the REALLY
long posts). Firstly what I see everywhere is LOTS and LOTS
of assumptions from everyone, morts and imms alike. Probably
THE biggest assumption that EVERYONE has made, was that they
deliberately went LD, (okay might be a high chance, might not).
As someone said, the ending comment of the log could either be
interpreted as basically 'screw you i'm going home
From: slam door
From:
(in this case LD would be delibrate), or it could be that they
were just getting revved up for the fight, saying big fighting
words or something, in which case they would lose link if say they
were on dialup and had call waiting on. Or their ISP booted them
or they could have dropped link for any number of other reasons.
Without actually talking to the player in question all EVERYONE
is doing when they talk about it (except maybe in the imms were
rude thing, which i personally dont see an issue, but I wasnt there
and I tend to look in the 'everyone's nice' image). Who knows, they
might have been fighting words, then they got booted or maybe even
lightning fried their compy so they wont be here for a while, but
maybe, they will come back, who knows. Quit assuming stuff.
Oh and about all this imm bashing and stuff recently. I think everyone
should come to this conculsion (whether true or false it will save
alot of time and hastle). Firstly since imms do have the power,
its prolly best to assume they ARE right, when you don't know what
you're talking about. Also a safe assumption is (and has been proven
on many an occasion), no imm will change under any circumstance. They
are all bitches, all out to get you and make the place hell for you
(okay the hell and bitches i made up), but they aint gonna change
so you may as well learn to live with it, cause if you dont you're
time here is just gonna be hell. If you accept that and that you
cant do anything about it, well then you can make ways to minimise
contact with the imms, thus making it more enjoyable for everyone.
Oh and for the record, I'm NOT on the imm's side, I personally think
that lately they have been getting a tad more flak than they deserve
Archaon
|U6
From: Jenna
Monday, September 01 2003, 10:23PM
Well, since everyone seems to be ignoring any of my 'valid issues'
let me try putting this shortly and simply. (or not so shortly)
I saw the incident, in my opinion the invis imm was rude and had
no business sticking their nose into the matter at all. I have no
logs, I am not a compulsive watcher or logger.
I chose to assume this was Cheyla on the strength of her posts,
and, as I said, please feel free to deny this and I will apologise.
I didn't talk to someone else as you'd like to suggest. At no time
have any of the immortal staff denied my version of events, other
than seemingly being unable to understand why we are upset about
it.
Kae was downright rude, defensive and unconstructive in her initial
criticism of me. She has also been trying to put words into my
mouth. And yet, she is not a member of the admin staff and would
appear to have nothing to do with this incident. We all have a
right to express our opinions, but I am somewhat bemused by her
attitude.
I posted anonymously so that my opinion would hopefully be taken
as just that. I came out of the closet as I had no need to hide my
identity from the player base. I also objected to Choc's implications
about who and what I am. I'm not terribly impressed with you
character assassination of me or Dolly. As you point out, we are
old players with good records, we have stated repeatedly that we
have no problems with warnings or immortals generally. And yet you
like to accuse us of hatred and me in particular of 'OLD bad blood
between the imm staff and specific players`. Perhaps you would like
to explain this to me, because I have no history of bad blood at
all. I am, in fact upset at the treatment of this newbie, that was
all I was upset about until Kae felt the need to put in her well
thought out opinions.
And finally, the only admin imms I have seen on for weeks are Bart
and Haley. Oh and Cheyla for about 5 minutes at the end of the
elfgame. I hate to bring in this issue, but if you expect us to
take it up you Choc, perhaps you should be visible. For anyone who
doesn't live in your time zone you are basically impossible to get
in contact with.
By the way, I have a hell of a lot of compassion Choc, for your
position as Head Admin and for the newbies out there. Newbies are
my thing, whatever my guise is I help them. I have good reason to
be upset about this incident, and even more good reason to be upset
with the following response by you and Kae. But, I have no hatred
as you'd like to imply, simply anger at how this was dealt with.
Still willing to stand up and be counted,
Jenna
|U6
From: Herbert
Tuesday, September 02 2003, 12:04AM
Its all a shame, and I really hope its taught something.
Losing a newbie is a shame, and the hostility in general
is pretty disturbing and everything, I just really hope
its a lesson learned.. not the beginning of something
much worse.
Keeping it simple, for a change, so passion doesnt get
in the way of sensibility.
D.
|U6
From: Chocorua
Tuesday, September 02 2003, 08:21AM
Getting in contact with me may not be as easy as typing
'tell chocorua ....' but there are a number of methods
available for communication. Mudmail and E-Mail are 2
of the most useful tools we have. I have lost a mudmail
a time or two while sorting through the ones that I get
but more often than not if you send me a note with a
question or comlaint you will get a response. I check
my mail multiple times a day. So getting in touch with
me is not impossible. It might just take a little
more work than sending a tell.
I admit I am invis more than I'd like to be. I've found
over time that people would rather that I be invisible
while I am at work or oow than left vis with an afk
buffer. I apparently wasted a lot of people's time
somehow by trying to be visible to deal with as much
as I could when i got back. This was as the players
request so now I am invisible a lot.
Got to love impossible situations.
Chocorua
|U6
