Chocorua, evil or misunderstood...|U6

Posted by Chocorua on 09/03

From: Chocorua Saturday, August 16 2003, 04:46PM I'd have to say that you are right, I am not visible much. that is directly related to requests from players for me to NOT be visible and afk. Unfortunately most of my online time is from work so the time I have to handle things is limited to small portions throughout the day. As head admin a portion of my job is to oversee the administration which isn't at all necessary to be visible for. I will be the first to admit that I don't spend enough time visible. I also don't think that I have ever not gotten back to someone who has mudmailed/emailed me for assistance, even if it has taken a few days. Yes it also sometimes takes me weeks to do some updates to the players picture pages. That just takes me a few minutes here and there. As for not doing fun things. Well I do run games and if you haven't been around for one of those, I'm sorry. Can't be here and running games all the time, nor do I want to. I thinhk that a large portion of people who see me as being rude or mean or whatever have very little knowledge of how things go when I have to deal with an administrative infraction. If being very blunt and straight forward offends you, then i suggest a LOT of time of time reading the rules and making sure that you understand them so that we never have occasion to discuss them after a warning is issued. It may be stating the obvious but I have no patience for people who don't play the game in a manner that does not break the rules. Chocorua |U6

From: Sarevok Sunday, August 17 2003, 12:13PM Still, handling a situation by "bluntly" telling someone to "shut up" doesn't look very good on you. Especially since you are supposed to be an authority figure. There are a lot more mature and professional ways to handle a situation, and professionally handled situations would prevent lots of flaming notes and appends in your general direction. In my opinion being head admin is your privelage, not your right, and I'm sure there are 100 other players who would gladly take a shot at head admin. Stop making it sound like such a chore. I've been here for at least 8 years and would love to be an IMM, as it is a great privelage, but alas, I'd never be considered. If ya don't like your job and the response it gets you, step down. Thats my 2 cents. |1The preceeding was paid for by the Sarevok for Head Admin campaign, located in magical Archive Land. |U6

From: Romanti Sunday, August 17 2003, 04:37PM Choc, I can't say you are good or bad as I've never met you and judging a book by it's cover is always wrong. I thank you for your politeness in directing this discussion over to this board I also thank you for your honesty upon this matter. I am sorry that I have never been present for one of your games, but what kind of game do you usually run if you don't mind me asking? I would be interested in partaking in such a game. Thank you for your honesty, and bluntness on this matter. Romanti C Utopea, Visionary. |U6

From: Kae Sunday, August 17 2003, 05:33PM Well, for one, Chocorua always has proved a valuable source of ideas and constructive criticism for the elf game writing! |U6

From: Archaon Monday, August 18 2003, 12:50AM okay, it seems everyone missed the point of the original post (or the one that i thought it meant at least anyway). I do not believe it was a flame post, more of a, 'hey i was talking on this channel, but didnt switch channels when asked, and got warned is that something i can be warned for?' or something. So if the answer is yes, then we could have just got rid of ALL this spam. But in relation to the imm topic. I don't think it's just Chocorua that needs to be vis more

From: poke 99% of the imm team

From: hardly ever see any of you... and occasionally I'll see LadyAce. But that's about it. Maybe it's my punishment for not living in 'the great all powerful USA' Anyway, thats about all i wanna write atm. Toodles Archaon (still has no pants) :P |U6

From: Rush Monday, August 18 2003, 01:04AM Choc, honestly, I think the problem lies with you. You choose to be extremely hardline about rules sometimes, your manner is curt at best, rude more often, and you get all bent out of shape when people mention it. Well,

From: shrug

From: if you are going to choose to interact with the players like that, then they are going to complain. So if you are OK with all the complaining, then don't change. If you'd like a better relationship with more players, consider adjusting how you treat us. Rush's player |U6

From: Sandman Monday, August 18 2003, 03:34AM I didnt mean to start a big rally on the "lets hate choc" wagon.. Alls I wanted to state was.. I am offended to have been punished over something that,when looked at by other assuming imms, was obscure at best. As a player who has been around and around with imms over punishments and is known to have gone to the better path, it just offends me that even with the showing of my turn around any minor thing, and assuming by imms, warrants a punishment to me. I say assuming because my comment that got me punished was taken in a way it wasnt said. It was assumed that I was taking a shot at a person, when I was just saying that and ill qoute.. "some ppl need to learn.." by mistakes they make. It upsets me that the first thing that comes to mind, because of my history, is that im being some annoying little kid shootin off at the mouth and being an overall child in the matter. I have the upmost respect for all immortals, for I know myself how it is to be in your shoes. And knowing that, the only way things can be done and be done with respect from the pbase is maturely and well thought out. It just urks me to see someone so willing and seemingly waiting to throw out any punishment over anything.. be it a rule or what I still feel in this case, an assumption..bending a rule to fit. Then afterward, being arrogant and not willing to listen or even explain exactly what had broken the rules.. doesn't seem very immortal like. No you don't have to be friends of the pbase.. and you dont have to be liked.. but you could atleast be civil, which sounds in the "shut up" channel.. that you lack a little in that department. Again, I'm not saying you are a terrible imm or anything else you may assume from the above... I just feel as a admin, head admin, the one in that position needs some people/social skills that arent so confrantational..? cant spell =p Sandman et all |U6

From: Chocorua Monday, August 18 2003, 07:52AM a couple points ... 1) people seem to have the misconception that I don't like or don't want to do the head admin position. that is just wrong. There are aspects about the position that I find leave a bad taste in my mouth. Most of those involve dealing with individuals who find it easier to break the rules than live by them. I knwo that is aprt of my responsibilities, but I don't have to enjoy it. If i did enjoy it then people would complain more about me, believe me. 2) there seems to be some sort of strange assumption by a few people that people who break rules are doing it just out of not knowing the rules. This does happen but 90% of the warnings I hand out or defend are against people who do in fact know better and are just upset that they got caught or that they don't agree with the rule. There are a few other things I would dispute but I can't. I do get confrontational (though usually it takes something to provoke me into that) and I am very blunt about my perception of the rules here on LegendMud. I am taking a hard line on enforcement of legend's rules. Consistency is the only way to create an atmosphere where people know what they can and can't do. Up until recently the entire immortal staff hasn't been all that consistent when it comes to enforcing the rules. Most of us thought it would be better to discuss problems with players and not hand out the warnings if the person sounded sincere. Well it's a text based game and humans are notorious for being dishonest. A mud is the perfect place to lie and get away with it. By handing out the warnings and being very strict with every infraction that comes along I can more or less say that everyone is getting the same treatment based on their history as a player on legendmud. As for people who are offended that they have gained a relutation as being a "bad apple" and are treated like it... What can I say? It happens and that is all we have to go on to make a judgement call on how you are going to act in the future. If it offends you so much to be judged by your past then you need to work VERY hard to avoid the same mistakes. That is tue for me too .. yes telling someong on chat to "shut up" isn't professional, but it is a tool I have to redirect a convesation that I am trying to redirect to a channel. Often the only way to get someone's attention is to take the more simple method of treating them like a child. I'd rather not have to do that, but I will do whatever I have to to make the playerbase on legendmud understand that we have rules and we need to follow them even if we don't like them. Now I will apologise to everyone who has ever felt offended at something I have said or done. I am truely sorry that all of you get offended by me. It is not (though that seems to be the common interpretation) my goal to offend, but only to enforce the rules of legendmud with the most consistency that I can. Chocorua |U6

From: Cheap Monday, August 18 2003, 08:51AM Here is my beef with it all, choc has repeatadly said things like "well if the players follow the rules we could have no interaction for them to get upset about" and things like "I do get confratational sometimes (though usually only when provoked by another)" Sure, players break the rules, players have lied, players are all out to break the rules and lie about it.. Keeping the rules the same for anyone is the best way to go about it, that is not an issue for me and it should not be an issue for others as well since we log on to the mud knowing full well that there are rules being enforced by the immortal staff that we are expected to follow. You can say you are doing your job and that this is the way it is going to be handled, but how often do people have to say to you that they do not like your attitude when doing your job? You place all the blaim on this apparent problem on the rule breakers or the people you get into a confratation with, but you fail to take any responsibility for your own actions besides that very half hearted apoligy I read on this string to those you have offended in the past. Including an apology on a post after saying that you feel its everyone elses fault but your own does not come off well in my eyes. Fine, you are right, if players did not break the rules then there would not be a confratation, but on the same note, if you did not have such an attitude when dealing with people all the time, then perhaps the attacks by the players when you address them in such a way would not be so terrible either. The fact that you seem to think you are the saint in the situation makes me think that you are part of the problem. Perhaps both parties should take a hard look at themselves, not just the playerbase here at legend choc. I can say that ive never been perfect when it comes to the rules but im hardly a rule breaker or have a history of such, In saying that I know I would not appreciate being treated like some idoit child who is beneath you because they made a mistake. But of course, let the excuses role out for why things are as they are. Im sure thats working for you. Cheap, a person just like everyone else, with feelings that can be hurt. Believe it or not. |U6

From: Chocorua Monday, August 18 2003, 10:07AM It's never been my intent to pain a picture with myself as a saint. I have enen at times said that the way i react to some situations is less than perfect. more often than not my reactions to players is very blunt. I can see your point that there is blame on both sides. I am not going to change the way that I handle situations in an attempt to try to draw teh best out of bad players. I know that is going to be taken in the light that "Choc isn't willing to even try to be nice." It's not my job to be nice and make sure that everyone is having a great day. If you are in a position to be into an argument with me then soemthing went wrong before that moment. Usually there are several things that went wrong before that moment. I don't go aggressive on people the moment a rule is broken. Believe it or not more often than not I take a great deal of abuse before becoming confrontational. I know that most people on legend won't agree with me on this but it is a waste of my time and theirs to spend hours in debate over the technicalities of what just happened. The best plan more often than not is to take the warning/punishment and then come back later when you are less anoyed at being caught and discuss it with me. You will find that when I am not in the middle of being called named and told that I just don't care about legend and that I am a power hungry jerk, that I more or less deal with people in a very calm and nonconfrontational manner. I'll take some blame for the way people see me as being offensive but I won't take it all. I also think that if people are looking for a way to avoid those situations they avoid them int eh first place by following the rules that are very well written, comapred to a number of muds I have played. Chocorua |U6

From: Shrieve Tuesday, August 26 2003, 05:07AM Well hello my darlings. What a debate -- I can't resist. I have to say as a suggestion to you all - Discretion is the better part of valour, my friends... There is a lot of mud-slinging on this particular subject, in fact some of us are tuning in as a substitute for our soap opera. It's gotten ridiculous to the point of sheer stupidity -- on both sides. I wonder, if there are this many people who believe Choc is unfit to be an imm -- is there a way to vote him out? I have no personal problem with Choc -- which is actually strange if you think about it, because I have a bit of a reputation as a troublemaker here

From: point drunk MUDing

From: I have three warnings -- and none of those are from Choc. Nor have I ever gotten a warning from him. Why? I suspect it's because he's rarely here, I have no doubt that some of my behaviour would be tolerated by him. The last time I was playing here often for any period of time, I think I saw Choc on vis was perhaps once a month. Shouldn't the head admin be more accessible to the pbase? Again, I have no personal problem with Choc. Actually, in all my brief dealings with him, he's been quite decent and occasionally helpful. Anyhoo, that's my two cents, have at it... "Remember -- DISCRETION!" quoth the vandal - Shrieve |U6

From: Chocorua Wednesday, August 27 2003, 02:09PM well to answer one question .. is there a way to get me voted out? umm .. since the players don't choose the immortal staff (and won't ever) there isn't any formal way to be voting any imm in or out. If you can ocnvince kaige either directly or through other imms that I am unable to handle the position then perhaps you can achieve that goal. As to my time visible, again, I used to spend all of my time here visible if i was afk or not because a large portion of the time i cna devote to legend is while I am at work, I was told repeatedly by a number of people that my presence visible while afk wasn't desireable and that i was "wasting their time." So now I am invis unless I have to go visible to deal with something or I cna devote more than a few continous minutes to this screen. Believe it or not I AM here a lot more than you might think. As for being available to players the only suggestion I can make is "TRY" to get in touch with me. Mudmail... Email.... Pray if it's an emergency .... these things all can work. And well if you aren't willing to try those things if I am not visible then whatever it is that you need might not really be necessary for the Head Admin... Anyhow I agree this posting did get a bit strange and much like a soap opera. But I don't actually mind people telling me how they feel. What annoys me is that in all of it noone was willing to take a look at it from my point of view. I uderstand that people find me blunt and at times rude though I am never purposefully rude to people about things unless they have drawn me into some sorta argument. I won't be changing the bluntness though, I find that if I say what i mean it leads to far fewer misconceptions, aside from the fact that people take it as being rude. Chocorua |U6

From: CLeo Monday, September 01 2003, 04:41PM Hello all, I've figured I'd drop by and give my opinion on this although I haven't been playing here in a long time. Most of you probably don't even know/remember me. I'm a player from eons ago. Anyways, I think lots of you are being hard with the flaming. I've had the chance to be an admin imm on another mud and yes it is hard... and does feel like unwanted work at time... like an extra load that appears at no where. Why did I take the position then? (you say) Well it's has its ups and its down. Like any other positions. Being an Admin imm, you need to be tough and sometimes rough. Sure we do not need to be super un-social or have too many behaviors like that... but it's quite unpleasant when people start bashing us just because we're reinforcing the rules and have them followed as best as possible. It _is_ our jobs to do that as Admin immortals. Like it or not. Chocorua is a good guy. I know it. I've played with him for a long time when I was here. He's good at being an imm and you guys need to try to understand it's not always easy to make the harsh decisions that need to be done. Anyways that's all I had to say... Chocorua, take care my friend.

From: hugs

From: CLeo of the |13Circle of Angels |n |U6

From: Romanti Wednesday, September 03 2003, 02:49PM imms=ex-players ex-players=imms any questions? I think that Chocorua taking the time to respond to the monotony of this post is really amazing more than anything. It's not until we visit a true 'horror world' that we realize that our lives here aren't all that bad. Kinda like real life if you steal and get caught, you will go to jail. I understand Choc's argument, and definitely see his points and arguments. It is his choice as to how he acts. Chocorua has been appointed our Head Admin by our immortal department. I have trust in the fact that our core immoretal staff would not put someone who is a 'loose cannon' into that kind of a position of power. Although it would be great to be able to get to know him as CLeo knew him. I think one can change another's perspective with kind words and a warm smile. But, as always, everything must be mirrored. Perhaps we should instate a trial by jury here at legendmud. If said player feels the need to deate his case he sets a 'court date' and he can be convicted, or not convicted, by the people. said person would state his case, and the warning immortal would state their case and reasons. Players could be picked at random for 'jury' duty and a unanimous vote will rule. Logs would become valuable as evidence and would be shared with jury members. Again, this would only occur when said player wanted to challenge their punishment. I think it would be harder for a player to act like a jerk in front of a group of players and immortals who would ultimately be judging his fate. Like warnings, a trial would be recorded for one full year inside the warning screen If an offending player re-offends while a trial marker is still activated on their character, trial is foregone and they receieve imediate punishment, as seen fit by the immortal staff. trial offenders whether guilty or not guilty should be posted and shown to the general mud public. I think making people more accountable for their actions will see a decrease in offenders. that's my two cents Romanti.C.Utopea, Visionary |U6