38|U6

Posted by Paranoia on 11/22

From: Shivan Saturday, November 09 2002, 11:45PM Completely and totally agree, Clan channels should be un-modded. especially pk ones. ly pk ones. |U6

From: Lex Sunday, November 10 2002, 01:50PM amen |U6

From: Sandra Sunday, November 10 2002, 02:46PM Coming from someone that was married to a sailor, and probably could spout of a few things to make you blush, I can safely say that the language I see here doesn't bother me at all. However, while you may easily forget why the language rules are there, they'll most likely stay. So, let me remind you why they are the way they are. The mud, tho some may forget it, is played by people under the age of 18. It is, in fact, played by people under the age of 12. No, I'm not counting the ones that act like they're under the age of 2 but really aren't. With this in mind, we still have to follow FCC rules regarding language for this PG-type thing. Clan channels are considered 'public', in that we don't have an age requirement to join a clan. Just like we don't have an age requirement to join the mud. So, in the 5 seconds it takes for the word to get from your brain to your fingers, stop your fingers from typing it. If the rest of us can, so can you. -Sandra |U6

From: Craven Sunday, November 10 2002, 06:39PM 5 seconds to type a swear word? Right... :) I know I type faster then most, but I can't honestly believe it takes anyone 5 seconds! Anyway, I agree but don't really care. Tons of muds are public muds without having age requirements and swear constantly. So do MMORG's like Everquest or whatever. They just have a stupid filter.

From: shrug

From: . |U6

From: Paranoia Monday, November 11 2002, 04:22AM Sandra dear, if the clan channel ceased to be channel, your point would cease to be in any way relivant :) Considering my entire post was about making something other than a channel for clan communication, I have to wonder just how long it takes already typed words to get to your brain. Doh! There goes that 5 second thing.. prolly shouldn't have typed that :P Point is, your append is way off the point. The other 2 points I made unlock w open w w close e lock e the original post were the main problem I had, but considering group tells don't have any restrictions on swearing, I still fail to see what you were writing about. |U6

From: Mice Monday, November 11 2002, 07:31AM Sounds to me like Sandra's saying it's just not going to happen so just don't swear or do other things that are against the channels rules. |U6

From: Sigrid Monday, November 11 2002, 10:08AM Or.. it's not going to happen so stop talking about it? And think about it, and wish for it. Ok, unpublic clanchannels is not going to happen. So what forum do you use to talk to your firends? Grouptell obviuously doesn't work since we all know that we seldom group with our friends but most likely with some imbecile that we dont want to share our thought with. Then there's only telling left, and say.. what if I had 3 or maybe more friends? (yes I know the scenario is unlikely). Fortune forbid that I maybe code a bit a stuff myself - say for my client - to send the same tell to all my friends, and thus myself 'code' a private conference. Of course this would take that all your friends did so and that you all decided when to talk on the homemade conference. My point: Why waste time for coders on something you can do yourself? Sigrid - against having coders wasting time on stuff

From: I

From: can do myself. |U6

From: Fortebraccio Monday, November 11 2002, 10:48AM I actually am with Paranoia on this one. Clan channels should be actually private and mostly because of the pkilling going on. If I say something on channel about hunting an Immortal alt and he actually is logged in is not like he can simply ignore it. Same goes for giving in-game info...when you are among friends in clan it can happen that you wanna share your infos but the public channel rule forbid it. Finally for the language I don't swear and i don't care for swearing but I can see that sometime you want t vent out especially after some nasty pkilling affair. So why don't make everyone happy and make clan channels private? The only consideration that is against this is that we would lose a bug immortal channel :P |U6

From: Cheyla Monday, November 11 2002, 11:52AM Consider the fact you can't turn off your clan channel... While a group with gtell is a temporary situation that you can generally leave quickly if the conversation is full of harsh language or in-game information you don't want to hear, a clan is a more permanent thing - or at least, I'd hope you don't jump from clan to clan like you will from group to group. Being a more permanent thing and not being able to turn off clan channels makes it a vastly different beast from simple groups. Groups don't generally reach the size of a clan, so with a clan, you're more likely to be sharing your cussing, alts information, or other in-game information with more than just a few people provided you've got an active clan. I know of a number of imms that simply turn off their clan channels when they have a mort that's pkilling, to avoid seeing information on the clan channel and retain that element of surprize. If an immortal DOES use clan channel information to gain the advantage, that's against our code of conduct and should be reported. Cheyla |U6

From: Ryadin Monday, November 11 2002, 03:55PM A note on Sandra's post: You said that anyone regardless of age can use channels, that may be true, but what about tells, and grouptell? One can be of any age to use them but they are considered 'private' channels. My point is anyone here can use any method of communication, so don't use it as an argument. I know some people that were 12 and were using gtell etc so obviously they CAN use it, they aren't THAT stupid :P Anyway enough imm drilling... Ryadin

From: twitch

From: |U6

From: Strad Monday, November 11 2002, 04:17PM How we s'posed ta know Cheyla? We can't log it, can't look through yer eyes I mean really, I just dun believe that. Turn it off when they could get an advantage? Naaaaaaaaw, ain't happening. And why CAN'T we turn off clan channels? Ya'll can, that ain't quite fair, is it? Kinda stupid we can turn all the others off, but not that ONE channel. |U6

From: Chocorua Monday, November 11 2002, 04:44PM what i find assinine is that there is a very clear rule in place here and it is easy to follow. anyone who knows me in real life can tell you that profanity doesn't offend me in the least. I might even use it once in awhile. okay quite often .. maybe all teh time... My point: the rule is there, follow it, no warning applied. Discussing the rule is good, it helps people who are wiling (willing) to understand the raeson behind the rule to get educated and perhaps brought into the small number of people who actually agree with this type of rule. My opinion: ANY rule about profanity limitation in the game where it is prohibited anywhere is just another reason NOT to use it in any of your online time which makes you less likely to slip in another public forum. Clan channels have been tagged public and they are likely to stay that way. I had that argument when they were first tagged in this fashion and have since come around to them being tagged as such. You have so many other outlets for your frustration and ways to trade information. use them, most of them are even free... (email, icq, IM, message boards, tells, notes.....) just respect the rules in place. Chocorua |U6

From: Akai_Hayate Monday, November 11 2002, 05:05PM Okay my brain is melting into a puddle of yellow goo(as opposed to the puddle of green goo it normally is) from reading all these boring appends but what it looks like to me is that the swearing rule and the game info rule are there to protect people who might not want to see swearing or get ingame info before they discover it, right? Well on chat and info and auction there aint really anything we can do but on a channel thats limited to 15 people at a time? How about if we have all 15 people sign a legally binding form saying they dont mind ingame info or cursing over thier clanchannel :P That way we know everyone in the clan doesn't care care and we can do it, rather than keep an annoying rule around just on the off chance that someone in the clan does care. Which i'm sure they don't don't, especially in the clan i'm in... and I also just wanna say i'm likin this idea even as more than a cheap way way to get around antiswearing rules, would allow people in a clan to work together better as a team just like regular gtell, only you wouldnt have to travel around the mud and find 7 other clanmates to group with to use this, and lets not forget that guy who logs in right when the fight starts and you have no time to tell them whats goin on. But I suppose we err nevermind no, i'm stopping while i'm less behind than normal. |U6

From: Karrion Monday, November 11 2002, 11:54PM The swearing thing seemed to me to be a bit more of a joke (while still being a valid point) and highly secondary in the post. It amazes me that so few people said anything about anything other than cursing. The other two points are good, and I still havn't heard a good explanation why a channel that is exclusive to a small group of players is called public. Cute how the imms focussed on the flippant, afterthought, joke of a point and the only refrence to anything other than the non-existant 'cursing issue' was a weak explanation of why we shouldn't worry about imms gaining information because 'it's against the rules and imms have by far more self control than normal human beings'. Congratulations, you have succesfully ducked the real qeustion and shifted focus to something it takes absolutely no creativity to come up with bogus half assed answers to yet again. (cuz really, unless one of you guys puts the idea up, what else are we gonna get?) |U6

From: Sandra Tuesday, November 12 2002, 02:12AM Yea, I responded to the swearing portion of the original post because, honestly, it's what was talked about most in the post. So, here's my response to the rest: Personally, I mud in 2 windows. One for a mort, one for Sandra. When I'm playing a mort, I can't see this window but a small section down at the bottom about a half inch high. I set my tells to beep in this window, so that I don't have to pay attention to it. So, now you know how I play. I know alot of other imms turn the clan channels off and keep them off all the time. Up to 32 clan channels can get a bit spammy. As for imms using clan channels to cheat... None of us are that stupid. Using things like that will get the person removed from the staff. You think you have rules, heh, we've got you beat. Maybe, instead, you should worry yourselves with the players that use information across their characters, than whether or not some imm that may have a clan channel on, and may be paying attention at the time, and may just have a pkiller that feels like killing your pkiller that's in that particular clan and talking while they look at the screen in that 10 seconds in between the 38 other channels that are going on and see what you say and decide to act upon it. But hey, we're always up to something mean and nasty, I hear. I keep missing it all though. :/ -Sandra, incoherent, but still wordy. |U6

From: Lex Tuesday, November 12 2002, 08:43AM just curious, but instead of the 'tradional' array of excuses to NOT do something, how about imms offering a solutions that they

From: could

From: live with? how about creating a 2nd clan channel, using the existing code that creates temporary channels used for trivia, and adding a config option for each? the GM would ask everyone in the clan which one they want to use, and then everyone would turn on that channel and off the other channel. the first channel, the one we have now, stays the same, no changes to it or the rules that apply to it as a, ahem, "public" channel. the second channel, just like a triva game channel, would (if turned on in the config option) work like they do, with ANY in-game info allowed and ANY 4-letter words allowed -- if it became excesive the GM could boot the annoying player. when you log in, if you have this option turned on, you automatically get added to the conference for your clan. no immorts would here it, and nobody else would either. and if you were sick of it you could change the config option on the fly and log in/out real quick. this way, everone wins. Lex Luther -- criminal genius at work |U6

From: Chocorua Tuesday, November 12 2002, 09:49AM that is a lot of work for a feature that just wouldn't get used. You all will claim to use it "all teh time" but it would just end up being used to vent and frankly as far as i am concerned you can vent in another fashion (read my last post for a list of alternative communicaiton options). is ther e aneed for profanity on a guild channel? no is there a need to share ingame info ona guild channel? no (especially not if the guild has any real motivation and created an out of game information store) is there any need to share alts on a guild channel? no (see last question's comment) can the coding staff use their time to create a useful feature instead of a toy that will get left on the shelf, un-played with? yep Chocorua |U6

From: Cheyla Tuesday, November 12 2002, 09:55AM I like the solution that is in place, so you won't see any alternate suggestions from me... Not only is it easier on us to maintain and administer (yes, and enforce the rules) when these channels all have the same rules, but it's easier on you... I see many comments on channels about how people forgot which character they were on or messages intended for the clan going on chat. It is likely that you'd just end up with more warnings for breaking channel rules. As for voting to decide whether it's a public channel or not... That's an awful lot of overhead for the imms to deal with - keeping track of which clan allowed the in-game info/profanity/alts on their channel and which didn't would prove to be a real headache. |U6

From: Shivan Tuesday, November 12 2002, 02:13PM How about a subscription based channel, open to everyone. But you have to sign up for it, and it is un-moderated. Well almost I didn't even realize it was a rule, but you should NEVER put alts on a channel. channel. Sigh I like line length :P So anyways, Let people sign up for this channel and have at it. As for confusing between channels, i'd most likely just turn and leave chat off. :) With the recent bug turning off channels, I didnt even notice. hehe. |U6

From: Paranoia Tuesday, November 12 2002, 05:45PM (ponder) Yes, Sandra, I see your point now. Half of one sentance out of a whole paragraph pertaining to said subject definately does constitute most of the post being about that thing. Yeah. The cursing thing is again the focus of all the appends, so congrats, you are still sucessful in focusing on the one thing everyone already knew there would be no stance change on. Your explination of the 'pkill imm alt' subject, being in essence a more wordy version of 'trust us, we are morally better than you people' is still fully inadequit. I won't go so far as to accuse anyone of or 'report' a fully unprovable thing as that, but I am fully convinced this has happ- ened more than once in the recent past. I have seen certain pkill chars I know to be alts of immorts suddenly rent out for no apparant reason almost immed-

From: peer line length

From: almost immediately after one or more folks have asked for a locate on said char for some 'payback'. Could just be coincidence, maybe something came up RL, blah, blah, blah.. I don't buy that whole line, and that was one of the main reasons for the original post. The in game info thing, is just redicilous as well. Some of us don't live on line, or like to do much of anything beyond pkill while online. We are actually being told that we should devote out of game time to archives and info sites to share information with our clansmen? I personally am outside the hall, engaging in fights at times when my clannies arn't anywhere nearby. At times like these, it would be useful to simply be able to speak freely (HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH SWEAR WORDS OR ANY OTHER KIND FO FOUL LANGUAGE) with my clansmen and get advice, directions, and other things of that nature. The clan channel is basically good for triangulating a location on non imm chars (not all imm alts are like that, but more than one is) and gossiping about pkill without whiny pk haters calling it spam. If I could just get one good reason why clan channels (the fact that you must be accepted into a clan in the first place and that there is a limit to how many members may join screams at me 'EXCLUSIVE' and 'PRIVATE') are considered public I would be happy. Just one reasonably inteligant reason. Back when Leatherface got channel banned so much for clan channel offenses and beat on this dead horse so hard I recall being told one reason the clan channels are considered public is that imms can't turn them off. Can not. Yeah, that's what a certain someone told us on the DE channel so long ago. I have a pretty clear memmory of which two imms were talking to us invis about it as well. So since the clan channel can now be toggled, there goes that excuse out the freakin' window. Everything clearly shows the channel to be private, what am I missing? |U6

From: Drakkon Tuesday, November 12 2002, 11:21PM i think the clan channel should be togglable as a mortal regardless of rules and regulations, i dont like the fact that i can't turn it off, hafl the time i dont want to hear the crap on it |U6

From: Ryadin Wednesday, November 13 2002, 12:03AM I agree with Paranoia. My first alt to join a clan was much surprised when an imm was talking on the channel. Because as he pointed out the facts that you HAVE to be a member of THAT clan made me think of it as a private channel. Also what Drakkon said is good. I haven't had a character in a clan for a long time but I would expect it is something like chat. Sometimes you just want to ignore all of that. So why can't you turn it off?

From: another feature that I thought you could do up until recently

From: Sandra said that 38 channels on when she's an imm is spammy. So she has them off. So if SHE has them off, why not make them private? 38 channels WOULD be spammy. So REDUCE LAG! REDUCE SPAM! Get MCCP, and make clan channels private. |U6

From: Kaige Wednesday, November 13 2002, 08:52AM Clan channels do not have a toggle for the members because you signed up to be a member of that clan. you should have both the ability to ask for and give help to your fellow members when needed. There are also many other types of info that are sent to the clan channel that OUGHT to be of importance to all members. The reason, again, why clan channels are not considered private, is that members cannot turn it off without leaving the clan. Perhaps that means if you don't like hearing what comes across your clan channel, you should not be a member of that clan? As far as immortals using the clan channels to the benefit of their pk enabled chars, if you have examples report 'em and it will be dealt with, especially since you're implying that it's not an isolated incident. As far as suggesting you devote offline time and resources for sharing information and strategies with your fellow members... that's but one way to do it. Personally, I think it would be MUCH more effective to group with your clanmates in the game and spend time with them and make more out of being a member in a clan instead just some fairly meaningless label in your title. Cause most of the pkill clans don't really act like a group of people who've joined an organization for any particular purpose. What I see is a bunch of rogues who prefer to play solo, but want all the benefits of being a member of a group with little of the work or commitment they want the rest of the group to make. group to make for their benefit. -Kaige |U6

From: Fortebraccio Wednesday, November 13 2002, 10:44AM Just one thing on Kaige append. Of all the pkill clan we Grendels are the one that actually group more to go and fight..and we are shunned for that very reason (they call it wolfpacking). At this very point I honestly think that if you don't want to make the clan channel toggable (so to make it private) you could give an option to the GM of one clan to create a so called war channel toggable and joinable from whoever wants in the clan. As been suggested in another post and I stand by it. |U6

From: Akai_Hayate Wednesday, November 13 2002, 03:41PM Everyone heard it, Kaige supports wolfpacking! I don't want to hear any more whining out of Certain so-called evil clans about being wolfpacked. |U6

From: Huginn Wednesday, November 13 2002, 09:35PM Hey another, you're an imm you must be cheating post! Great! That really makes the entire staff want to participate in pkill, good job! I know most of us already love that subject to death and would do anything to keep it around! Never been any talk of pulling it because its too much trouble, no siree! Frankly, on a serious note, I'm getting sick of being one of the staff coming down on the side of pkill. And what's making me sick and tired of it is crap like this. Some of you know that I pkill.. and have stomped the hell out of me all in the name of fun.. did I sometimes see those stomps coming? Yes. Did I act like I didn't and took it anyway, yes. Did any of you appreciate that seperation? Apparently not. But you're not going to accuse people or report anything, you're just going to try and use what you imagine happened to get your own way on something. That's not the way it works. Either take up whatever violation you imagine with Kaige or reject the person you think is taking advantage of your channel. But putting it on the boards without having the stones to do crap about it is lame. Huginn |U6

From: Mandarb Thursday, November 14 2002, 09:47AM This post I thought started with making clan channels private, not the cheating or imms. Seems like the whole idea of the post was lost. |U6

From: Dolor Thursday, November 14 2002, 10:20AM You're right, Huginn. A lot of people don't have the stones to take accusations against imms through the appropriate channels. And the connotation that it's because they have no evidence isn't always wrong either. But, some people are unwilling to take problems with the imm staff through those channels because they've done it before and got one of three reactions: they were ignored completely, they were told that they were wrong and the imm was right, or, most often and most frustrating, they're told that the problem will be "looked into", after which it will never be spoken of again. I know people who have suffered from imm abuse of power, and who have subsequently taken their complaints to the higher authority only to end up getting oe of those three reactions. Honestly, I myself have never had many problems with imms. But I've known people who have had nearly daily struggles with certain members until they finally got fed up with the whole business and quit. Anyway, I'm not only straying from topic, but I'm super inactive boy too, so I guess this doesn't really count for a whole lot, huh? Anyway, that's just my cent (two cents is too much for me) Dolor. Nope, still not active. |U6

From: Karrion Thursday, November 14 2002, 05:01PM The reason the imm alt/pkill alt simultaniosly logged thing was brought up, from where I sit, was an example of why making the clan channel private would be a good thing. If the imm had to snoop to get this info there would be a record of their pk alt being on and the enemy clan chanel being looked at. I am not saying the imm staff in general are a bunch of cheating bastards, but can you blame the players for not wanting to make an accusation about something fully unproveable against somebody who is quite capable of making your time spent here pretty rough? I am not a person who really cares much about other peoples alts and make no effort find out whos who, but even so I end up hearing about some here and there. I personally know of 2 (active) immortal pkill alts right now, one of which I can't complain about and have great fun playing with. The other fits the not so good end of the above topic. What I am trying to say is that I don't think these appends/posts are just mindless slander and attacks against imms in general, simply comfirmation that this is indeed a valid point. If immortals who simultainiously log on had to actually seek out this information, I know that I would feel a whole lot more comfortable saying something. As is, I don't want to get specific since it really isn't something that can be proven either way, so even if I am right I am wrong and get the shaft for a false accusation. So to Huginn, Cipherz and other imms who feel they have been wrongly tagged, as far as I am concerned anyway, this topic is a blanket statement. That is, directed at a general group but refering only to an individual, because it simply isn't safe to be more specific. I appologize if you feel you've been mistreated or slandered in any way, that was not my intent. As for 'not being able to turn the channel off' being why it is considered 'public', I still don't see how that part is any differant than a gtell. The only way to turn off gtell is to leave the group.. only way to turn off clanchannel is to leave the clan. (ponder) |U6

From: Kaige Thursday, November 14 2002, 05:23PM And again, re: leaving a clan being likened to leaving a group One would HOPE that people don't take joining any old clan and leaving through what amounts to a revolving door as lightly as they do joining up and leaving groups. -Kaige |U6

From: Karrion Thursday, November 14 2002, 07:41PM Well, I likening the clan channel to a more comprably sized group like SL or PD or something of that nature, where you don't exactly leave and rejoin like a revolving door. Usually when joining a group that size you don't leave untill RL requires it or the thing is done. |U6

From: Sallah Friday, November 15 2002, 02:36AM So many things we REALLY need the coding staff to work on, like new skills or a way to balance out battle-druids with the rest of the community, but you want them to waste their time changing clan channels so you can swear on them? Forget it! It's hard enough getting them to work on stuff that actually matters, and this doesn't. |U6

From: Akai_Monkey Friday, November 15 2002, 03:31PM We don't need new skills..I have too many damn skills already, and who cares about battle druids? Everyone already has one now anyways, and I dont know alot of people who use them anymore either. You should be coding something to fix Stregnth! Or uh if thats done...how bout some pie? err no correction, I would like to be able to repair my gun one of these days, how are those skills coming? :P |U6

From: Stain Saturday, November 16 2002, 04:50PM Sallah, I don't give a crap about cursing, and neither do the other folks I know who think this whole 'public' tag on the clan channel is stupid. I am by far more creative than that, it's more fun to really ream someone a new one with witty, barely not-warnable inuendos or slur than to offend with a single word. You people seem to have tunnel vision, the only thing unlock w open w w close e lock e your line of sight being a 4 letter word. Constatly focusing on such vulgarity can't be healthy, can it? |U6

From: Sallah Friday, November 22 2002, 04:29AM For one thing, who exactly is "you people"? Go ahead Stain, tell me exactly what reason you have OTHER than cursing why clan channels need to be made private. And don't bother with the "I don't want immorts listening in" nonsense, because that excuse wouldn't fly if I bolted it to the fuselage of a 747. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but as it stands I think clan channels are fine and changing them would be a complete waste of everyone's time. |U6