Idea : PK points|U6

Posted by Saga on 10/20

From: Saga Monday, October 14 2002, 03:09AM Of course to prevent 2 guys to repeteadly kill each other to make points something like a counter would prevent you to make points of the same player every 50ticks. Want more points? accept more ppl :P

From: grun

From: |U6

From: Saga Monday, October 14 2002, 03:14AM Also points would benefit clans, Each clan would gather sums of members points acquired during their membership. For every 500 pk_points, a clan gets pkclan_redeem points: 1) Reduces Housing costs 2) Clan whois? 3) Clan Affiliated mobs around hall (not imped yet?) 4) Clan Halls strings etc..

From: trying to be creative and not quake-ish

From: |U6

From: Anjani Monday, October 14 2002, 05:44AM It would be nice if those clan items were available to RP clans as well. Anjani's player |U6

From: Akai_Hayate Monday, October 14 2002, 09:49PM This sounds pretty cool but some of the prizes should be toned down so that we don't have to replace the imm staff with Ai's to get this coded :P A coupon for 100 points? 1-2 points a fight? Some people could fully string the mud in about a week :P I like the whois part tho, cause there aint enough ways to get unique strings anymore, hell i've only seen one in however long i've been here.. |U6

From: Habeeb Monday, October 14 2002, 10:27PM |U6

From: LadyAce Tuesday, October 15 2002, 10:22AM I think that a points system sounds rather abusable....too much could be gained with botting. Ultimately, I think that pking -- pitting your skills against an intelligent opponent, the thrill of victory, the shame of defeat, the shakes in your hands, the adrenaline in your blood .... that's what makes PK a joy. The steady advancement of acquisition sounds more like the fun of efficient mobkilling, to me. -LA |U6

From: Aegir Tuesday, October 15 2002, 11:31AM while i agree with the botting / exploiting potential... ... for me there is zero fun in mobkilling =P this has been done successfully in dark age of camelot, what makes it work is that once you are killed and someone gets point(s) from you, you are worth zero points for the next (insert number here) ticks... i'd be happy to help with a points system for pk, and maybe its something that needs to be phased, what i mean is: step one code the awarding of points into the system and turn it on, with no rewards -- publish the list in the LT every week as to wins/losses sorted by points etc step two based on the results of step one, you can decide what sort of rewards players and/or clans should be able to obtain. thoughts on rewards i do like the idea of pre-titles, however for me it depends on the char if it were something i would want, so the reward system would have to work like redeem, where you can choose your rewards. perhaps this would be a good chance to use new prize machines with RP based prized only (see above thread). and, for clan totals, the GM could buy things too - the one i would REALLY like to see is the ability to define one (if you have multiple) houses) as THE clan hall, and buy a trans mob that takes you in and out like the OLD clan halls -- this would be available to pk and rp clans, and even to rogue players, because you get individual pk points at say a rate of 20 +/- level difference for each kill, but you'd get only 1 clan pk points at say a rate of 1 per kill (again, only if that person hadn't killed ed in the last, for example, 30 ticks). just some thoughts |U6

From: Akai_Hayate Tuesday, October 15 2002, 01:49PM Well I just wanna add I like the whole pretitle thing and if nothing else a code for gettin one (maybe a different set like "Looter akai" :P) from pk would be cool, cause with the amount of time I can and this chars mobkill ability i'm lucky to hover at about 4 mil xp, but I do 100000000 pk fights a week :P (Okay like one a month nowadays, but still) And its kinda annoying that all the rewards go to people who make efficient mob killin chars(who would be butchered in pk in a heartbeat :P) what about efficient pk'in chars(who get butchered in mobkill in a heartbeat!) Those other rewards you mentioned are nice...but you only really get them when your new to pk, the only time my hands shake are when my computer is too close to a window and its winter :P the only time I get the thrill of victory is when I steal multiple coupons from someones inventory without without them noticin, and the shame of defeat only comes to me when uh uh, uh...when absolutely nobody not even Jman laughs at my dirty jokes! How about 500 losses for "The big loser Akai" or "Mr. Just-retire-already" or uh "What-are-you-a-knight Akai" and 500 victorys like uh "get a life akai" "Your probably just using whatever char is good atm Akai" okay that ones a tad long I guess :P loot 100 items from different people for "looter" or "dirty thief" or "grendel" as pretitles... anyways ill shuddup now. oh a wolfpacking one too! :P But I spose theres now way to check that |U6

From: Saga Tuesday, October 15 2002, 04:10PM Theres a percentage of players that already Playerkills. Theres a percentage of players that will never PK. Theres a percentage a player that don't pk atm but that would if something attracts them getting into the brawl. This pk_points system is a carrot idea for them :P |U6

From: Miyamto Wednesday, October 16 2002, 02:52PM I think the point idea is a good idea, but there is room for it to abused. I would like to see something imped to encourage more pk Perhaps, just the idea of the points, and then a section in the LT to list who the best pkers are for the week, and the points they have may even be sufficent. However, getting coupons for pking seems like it might be a little extreem. Maybe a token to the weeks 3 best pkers or something though. My 2 cents, Miyamto |U6

From: Drakkon Wednesday, October 16 2002, 06:06PM why is pkilling for coupons extreme, when mobkilling for coupons isn't? shrug |U6

From: Hedge Wednesday, October 16 2002, 11:05PM Love the idea. I can sort of see the worries with abuse/etc... but perhaps this in some form could be tried? Like someone mentioned above, if it was imped and point totals only used to declare that weeks 'top 5 killers' or whatever, seems like a pretty good way to test it out. Nothing more to add, except my useless stamp of approval.

From: shrug

From: -Hedge |U6

From: Dias-Jax Wednesday, October 16 2002, 11:35PM LA, SHUT UP! You don't know WHAT the hell yer talkin' about, ain't no PK thrill anymore ain't no new PKers to add a thrill, hell, there ain't enough REAL PKers to make a thrill anyway. This points system may actually help. Ya know, I think we deserve something for how hard we try,m since ya'll don't give us no god damn XP, 19.5k for losing 600 HP and using every in game heal we can find, that's pathetic. And ya know, even when we DO try to be proud of our info's, some non PKin' bunch of god damn morons come along to tell us "You're just in it for the info's, to look better than everyone else, why do you even bother?" Or some Stupid god damn imm

From: spit Hrath

From: Looks up all yer god damn alts and rejects them, now tell me you REALLY think some people don't need incentive to PK? I got enough AA alts to run a PK mud, but they don't get no action, everyone's inactive because there aint nothing left, for the love of god, just this ONCE give us something, we ask, and you say no, never anything for us cause ya'll don't want involved in PK matters, well it's part of your damn mud, so you better get involved, we ARE part of it, like it or not, and we deserve benefits JUST the same as those punks that mobkill all day for 2 days and get a pair of coupons for it. He offered a timer to destroy the ability to abuse it, a timer of 50 ticks that should only tick while not in safe rooms that makes it impossible to get points from people you've previously killed until the timer is gone If you all can do it with normal timers, and normal XP, you can do it with this, is it REALLY that hard to give us one break? |U6

From: Jen Thursday, October 17 2002, 06:17AM I'm sure I wroteth this before, but it seemth to hath died. I personally thinketh tis a good idea. Mine comments were of why should there be disadvantages to it? for ist naught the threat of perma from abuse enough to slow them down? What use ist coupons when the character ist dead? The way I see it, thou can mob kill for a week, or PK AND mob kill for a week, both giving the same number of tokens, except one way one hath lost more xp than gain'd, which can be rather a large problem if thou ist naught of level 50. Even if thou ist of level 50, doth naught mean it ist naught a problem. As Dias sayeth I think it ist time PKers twere given an advantage. I ist naught a PKer so there ist naught advantage for I if this cometh in or naught. Who hath heard of a str/dex PKer? well one that doth naught die all the time I meaneth. If imms do naught liketh the idea of PK for coupons, how about they increase the xp of the kill, and decrease the xp loss. How about 100-200k xp for a fight that thou useth all in game heals, and ends up with 2 hp and 0 mana before the death. To prevent abuse of PKing for xp, one could have xp varying on YOUR hp/mana loss, as well as opponents. Perhaps quadripple quadripple the amout of xp for 2 targets etc. For as Dias sayeth there ist naught reason to PK, one of the reasons why I hath avoid'd it. Change this even slightly, make it only so as PKing ist equal to mob kill, even this twould gain more PKers. The small and dying community. Jen |U6

From: Harkonnen Thursday, October 17 2002, 08:34AM

From: defend LA

From: she was just pointing out a flaw she saw, there isn't a need to put her down for it. and, she is correct it could be abused if not imp'd correctly -- that is why i think Ea! or whomever is coding this needs to get player input BEFORE the design is done. this could be a very cool feature, and i don't want to see (sorry Ea!) another change go in like what happened to create healing roots, that being the complete destruction of 2c create mages (IMO )... perhaps the data could be made available in XML format, and players could create their own web pages totally the data/stats/pkers? |U6

From: Saga Thursday, October 17 2002, 08:42AM Hmm This is getting a bit out of the topic. The starting point of my idea was to propose a new feature to attract more people on the Pk scene. In my humble opinion, pkok was designed to make pk a less harrassing game for some players (which it succeeded) and then attracting more players on the pk scene giving them the guaranty of safety (failure here imho, theres less ppl pkilling atm, and I mean active players, not counting players with a pk alt in each active pk clan) I am still convinced that PK is a fun game played on a large scale with many opponents and Im also sure that some people can find more in pk than just the pleasure of "getting better at it" or "winning". Nowadays, PK has very few bad issues : Noone really loots anymore (steal skill uselful?), Multying is almost considered illegal, at least very not politically correct, and xp penatly is a joke (2 mobs). So how come people are not more attracted to pk? Its because it too much emphasizes the "I win over you" aspect. By giving "prices" to people that would only participate in PK it would, I think, reduces the frustration felt by someone new to this aspect of the game when he gets "OwN3D" by some self-called olschool pker. I also think coupons you get from PK should be RP_Coupons (yeah you have to write a LT article on your pk life to benefit from it). That would help include the pk scene within the whole global mud life. As for Pk_pretitles, it would also help the whole global rp by not marginalizing players that only_pk from players that only_xp. As for the system abuse part, someone pointed out DAOC. Yeah, DAOC is a "boring"/not very RPish game but it handles with PK pretty well imho. Their "Realm points" system (which I didnt thought about when posting this idea first) isn't abused at all in an environnment that is much more anonymous and risky : with the timer, it is less rewarding to bot than to actually play the game. I am not saying that this kind of player needs more treats or that other kinds are idiots etc.. Im just annoyed that some players never got an exciting opportunity to enjoy the game as its whole (Mobkill/Quests AND pk) |U6

From: Kae Thursday, October 17 2002, 02:31PM To my knowledge, Hrath does not have the commands to look up anyone's alts more than you do. |U6

From: Hrath Thursday, October 17 2002, 02:45PM I'd like to know since when rejecting was cheating? as I've stated to you personally Dias-Jax, you're just too immature for me to spend my time on, hence I'll play with those who doesn't let their testesterone-overdosed lower half do their thinking. if you're referring to breaking of crossplay rules, then perhaps you may want to reconsider your blatant posting with one char, appending with another and signing with a third, plus the whole ordeal of -demanding- respect for alt x while playing alt y and z without any reason except that above stated lower half. as another good advice if you wish to pkill my morts is that I usually reject people I gagchannel, that may be another hint for you, if I don't catch you knowing who your chars are, if you keep spewing (imho) garbage at channels, you will find yourself gagchanneled -and- rejected. |U6 /Hrath -- fails to see why not wanting to pk with people who are immature obviously have ooc issues with my player is cheating. |U6 |U6

From: Sandra Thursday, October 17 2002, 02:44PM LadyAce was pointing out possible flaws in the system. To be able to work a system, we need to find out it's flaws as well. Now, onto the not-so-nice stuff... Dias, I seriously suggest that you remove your head from your ass and pay attention to this. I'm only going to say it one time. If you have a problem with an imm, think they did something illegal, report it. Otherwise, don't go making accusations that you most likely have no basis for. Why would Hrath need to look up your alts? You're pretty loose with that info anyway. Anyone that logs in for 5 minutes can know half your chars. Yep, PK is boring currently. do I think the points system will help? Nope. Why? Because you can a) attack your friends and gain whatever you want with no risk. b) Scare any people that might be thinking about going AA from going AA because you're an info junky/want the whois/whatever prize there is. Maybe what you should ask yourself is this: Why will no one pk with me? You'd be surprised if you realize that it's not THEM that's the problem... -Sandra |U6

From: Thundarr Thursday, October 17 2002, 06:00PM sorry to see this turn into another 'Is dias-jax an ass or not?' thread. anyway, Sandra, i think this could help pk. if there is no reward other than to see your name in the LT on a leader board, then i do not think too many people will be abusing it, since abusing it could get you deleted if caught. once you get a feel for the system, you could A) setup the correct rewards, or B) turn it off. so the only real thing to consider is this -- is it worth the time it would take to code and implement. now, i can guess most of the imm staff would feel the initial overhead of administering, thats how these things work, but personally i am for it. if you want the mud to slowly slowly grind into LegendMOO then thats fine, guess i would just like to see it grow and grow into a game that supports 100+ online at any given time, and i think pk is the way to do it -- we have a damn good combat system here for it, shame for it to go to waste killing mindless mobs for xp... |U6

From: LadyAce Thursday, October 17 2002, 06:19PM I didn't fully explain one point I was trying to make, when I alluded to what I thought the fun of PK is, versus the fun of Mobkill. To me, it seems like a lack of fun in one area of the game isn't a good reason, in and of itself, to make it more like another part of the game. I'd rather see diverse rewards and joys than push everything into a muddle where everything has the same reward. Maybe it'd be helpful if I made an analogy, I don't know -- but once a year, I help my university run an orientation carnival of sorts, and we have a variety of games and a variety of prizes. It seems as if people have more fun with all the different games of skill and chance if they have chances at diverse rewards -- perhaps a few in common among them, but also something unique and special. The more ways there are to get something, the less valuable the thing becomes, generally. But of course, if it's too rare, it's just frustrating. So there's a balance. Ultimately, I'd rather see a reward structure for each element of the game which stands distinct from the others in as many respects as possible. Rewards also give a motivation for abuse, as other folks have said -- so offering only a 'leader board' has fewer of the problems I was referring to. But it seems like the problem really is making the PK part of things fun. Dias-Jax said that it's unfun because new people aren't joining. I'm not convinced that distinguishing/glorifying people's successes will increase the interest from non-pkers, past what the current LT articles do already. We want all parts of the mud to succeed, we want you to enjoy what you guys and us folks have put together out there. I'm simply trying to make the point, at great length now, that I'd rather see something that doesn't follow the same recognition/reward system of other aspects of the game. -LA |U6

From: Saga Friday, October 18 2002, 02:02AM Thanks for your appends all. I just wish to quote Sandra and LA here about a couple things:

From: quote

From: a) attack your friends and

From: quote

From: gain whatever you want with no risk. At the moment, 90% of the chars I fight are the same 8 friends on different alts. I dont think theres anymore this hate/frienships between any of the active pkers, maybe because it is not the thread to discuss it, but atm pk scene is more like a fencing class.

From: quote

From: I'm not convinced that distinguishing/glorifying people's

From: quote

From: successes will increase the interest from non-pkers Like I said ablove, this wasn't meant to be the idea. The idea was to be able to get prices for pk in a way that would allow players that dont get the "glory" (aka the not-so-skilled-yet ones) to at least get some toys to thank them for at least participating until they can win more frequently. Just realized that the 15 active pk players nowadays are mostly ppl that do much more pk that then mobkill and are very tricky to fight with. Why would someone new to pk would jump into it now given fact that theres few benefits to his fun. If any thing has to be published in the LT, I really think thats a kill ratio would be uninterresting. I don't care to know who is the best pker around. I would be more interrested in learning who's the most active but here again Glory's not the point.

From: Well Pretitles and coupons from mobkill are also here for gloryfying some people too no?

From: Maybe LT_Coupons as a reward would be a good idea no? Who would want to abuse them but the people that want to RP? Where is the evil in abusing RP? :P |U6

From: Kaige Friday, October 18 2002, 08:58AM Hmm... you do know that _anyone_ who writes up a pkill event and sends it in to the LT gets a prize token just like any of the RP pieces, right? A few people have taken me up on this offer and I've gotten good reviews about how those short little paragraphs are often more interesting and more like the old LT stories because they're about actual events on the mud between real characters. Seems like a good way for anyone on either side of a fight to get a little prize, maybe make some money, tell their side of the story as well as spread the word that more people are participating than just a listing of which clans were active/inactive each week (which I think is useful information for those of you either looking to join or accept a clan). -Kaige |U6

From: Aegir Friday, October 18 2002, 09:56AM you're missing his point, i think, Kaige. it wasn't about a way to get more prizes/coupons from pk'ing, it WAS about a way to get more players to participate in pk... i like strings as much as the next guy, but the reason we want to see something added to pk is to attract more players. right now, its hard for someone completely new to the mud to jump in and be competitive, it takes a few months of getting slaughters, and often making a new L50 char... thats fine and okay, but there are lots of people who know this mud like the back of their hand who don't like to pk for whatever reason, but who might if there was an incentive... those of us who are almost always AA and ready to fight given a target obviously don't need a reward to pk, but we DO need more, different players to make it fun. right now, its just the same little group for the most part fighting with different alts vs. each other, and, while its fun, i would like to see more chars in it is all... -Aegir and a host of other L50 chars |U6

From: Kaige Friday, October 18 2002, 10:03AM Umm.. I was replying to Saga's append right before mine: Saga wrote: Like I said above, this wasn't meant to be the idea. The idea was to be able to get prices for pk in a way that would allow players that dont get the "glory" (aka the not-so-skilled-yet ones) to at least get some toys to thank them for at least participating until they can win more frequently. and: Maybe LT_Coupons as a reward would be a good idea no? Seems to address those specific points to me. A different kind of recognition for effort and glory beyond a death info, and LT_coupon rewards. As far as getting more people participating, well, just adding in little hard-coded carrots isn't going to convince people it's fun. o Advertising that you're having fun while doing it -- not just griping o Sharing stories about the fun you're having -- lets more people than those you're with know that people are having fun doing it. o Not ignoring ideas and stuff that people are offering or even ARE attempting like the PK Nights post earlier here, the Infernals attempts to get more people participating, and the PK School Clan -- would probably certain go a long ways toward getting new blood into the PK community. -Kaige |U6

From: Anjani Friday, October 18 2002, 05:33PM For a while this thread confused me ... I couldn't work out whether it was for rewarding pk-only chars or encouraging more people to try out pk. Thanks for your post clearly stating that it was about encouraging new people (ie those who currently only mobkill) to try pk. That being said, if I was to consider trying pk, a reward that I get after 100 fights (assuming I lose each one) isn't going to entice me. I might consider trying one fight and seeing how it goes ... but to try 100 fights? It's too much. It's like telling a legendmud newbie who finds getting 200 xp a challenge 'and when you get 50 million xp you get a redeem'. They're going to believe for a while that they're never going to make it. If you want to encourage more people to try pk, you need to think about why they're not choosing to pk, and work on those issues. A reward that they feel they may never get isn't going to persuade them to start accepting people. Anjani's player |U6

From: Craven Friday, October 18 2002, 07:41PM To Kaige and to Aegir. Your both wrong. This is not a problem that can be resolved by code nor can it be resolved by players. It has to be resolved by BOTH. Say what you want Kaige, but you have defended this system and ALL its flaws like its made of diamonds. There can't be anything wrong with it for some reason, and theres no way in hell your going to let anything about it be changed. And of course Aegir. While I think we're friends ooc, you really need to let it go. They aren't going to code ANYTHING. Give it up. Its just giving people false hope and causing the imms more problems as they come up for more excuses for not every changing pk when its obviously failing. The majority of the people who pk now are idiots. And while you'll all take that the wrong way, I really don't care. They are selfish and complete asses who care nothing about anyone but themselves. They don't care about the health and vitality of pk on the whole, they care that people fear them, which they mistake for respect. I'm sorry that pk isn't what it was 6 years ago, but I learned a long time ago that everything changes. I can remember a time when I fought that here constantly, as any of the older imms will probably sorely recall as well. In this case, the change was in the playerbase more then in the code. Pkok would have succeeded 6 years ago. The people that played could have handled it. For some reason I can't fathom, Kaige seems to think that the people here today can as well. But, unfortunately, that is not the case. So keep on posting people, but your wasting your time. That goes for both sides. The player are NOT going to change and make this work, and the imms are NOT going to change the code to make this work either. And unless both sides decide to cooperate, thats just the way its going to stay. - David, Craven's Player |U6

From: Fortebraccio Saturday, October 19 2002, 01:15AM Well answering to Craven, ignoring the rest of the post I have to agree on the point that if pkill is gonna be revitalized it can happen only if both players and immortals help it. I'm not gonna ask about hard coding but some involvement on making it more appetible would be great. Like Kaige said: pkill nights..what happened to that? I think pkill players were willing to do some work on that but they went forgot and I wouldn't swear that is only players fault. Infernals are a great attempt to make pkill back but we Grendels we have been alwasy about that so I cannot say that is something that is ignored. Pkill school would be honestly a great project and I believe at the moment there is a clan trying to achieve it. Now in all honesty I know that between pkillers there also immature or hormon-charged players but i can say without fear that there are also those that would like just to have fun in a way that is different from mob-killing...and truth is that it seems to me that Legendmud as whole doesn't encourage it in any way... In my opinion if pkill can be resurrected is something that need support from all players (and I know many that are doing their part) but the immortal staff as well. |U6

From: Zemus Saturday, October 19 2002, 08:15AM If pk is so bad Sandra like you said, why dont you imms do something about it, insted of its the players that dont pk Every single Idea we players have brought up to help pk all of you imms shut it down. This mud sucks atm, hence why I dont play anymore, I just read boards. And how hard is it to see abuse, when you you see the same player being killed over and over again. And another thing say I did just get my 4 friends to kill each other, what advantage would would I get by haveing 1000 pk points, I get more coupons and pre-titles WHOOOPPPPPP DEEEEEEE DOOOOOOO This is not gonna make me more powerfull than I was before, unless you imp something where I get more pracs or something, then that spam dying would be a issue a issue, Hell you can make it so you only get rps for killing people in other clans other clans, perhaps it might make clans worth a damn too, as for rouges go, go sorry. I get this feeling everytime I read the boards, and it shows in the ammount of changes or lack there of, that the imms feel the mud is perfect the way it is and needs no more big changes. I mean it shows in the no new areas is what 2 or 3 years, no new skills, no new pretty much anything, and it shows in the imms attitudes and how the turn down every idea. I just think the imms dont have time for this mud, and getting bored of keeping it up, and dont wanna go through the coding of new stuff Well now I think will finnally give up and just archive forever my friends all got their charas deleted for inactivity, I have a few that got deleted already, think I only got 2 left :P zem |U6

From: Ea! Saturday, October 19 2002, 12:20PM Just a quick implementation note on this sort of idea (which, by the way, has been suggested in the past): The code doesn't have a good idea of who "won" a battle -- we can't easily tell the difference between people preying on people who only have a handful of hitpoints left, nor can we avoid wolfpacking. Any way to assign points, therefore, can't be based on any sense of "win" or "loss." If it was plausable, we'd have tracked wins and losses a long time ago. But "win" and "loss" isn't so clear. What if you reduce someone from 600hp to 5, but then they get away? You've clearly carried the day, but there was no "victory." So, this just leaves giving points based on pkill activity -- has someone fought a lot? But this is wide open to abuse -- just fight a little bit with your friends to get points. So, we're to the point where points are pseudo-arbitrarily assigned -- there's no prestige in getting a lot of them because anyone who hangs out with a friend for a little bit and trades fights with a couple people gets as much prestige as someone who does real pkill... -Ea! |U6

From: Aegir Sunday, October 20 2002, 10:48PM mostly an append to craven: yes i too would consider us friends ooc, as long as we've known each other through this mud i can say that we could easily hang out RL etc and, while i can't argue against your points, as you have the history of this board and this mud on your side, i still like to try now and again to get things changed. and if in fact it is a lost cause, and i am wasting my time, well too bad for me, eh? my play time here comes and goes... i played UO, and EQ and DAOC... and between these games i play here. most people here, and specifically some of the imm staff, like to think that its better here -- i'll concede its more familiar and social, however there are many things that could be improved... i think the fact that skill trees are dead, and no new areas have or are coming down the pipe any time soon are reflective of the course this game are going. that's fine, not much i can do about that, except to voice my thoughts, ideas, opinions and whatnot. most of my chars are AA, and i do what i can. |U6