Creates

Posted by Carney on 08/28

From: Tempus Saturday, August 25 2001, 02:15AM at least you get helpers....when is that recruit skill going in for fighters? -poke-

From: Lancelot Saturday, August 25 2001, 02:48AM Well I feel create sucks at 3rd circle level. Most of the usefull spells creates have are in 2nd circle light, roots, preserve

From: Infernal Saturday, August 25 2001, 02:51AM Well i feel the same way as you Carney. chant vina vant dyn ex create 3rd circle blows major chunks. Im strength as well and I have a kick ass 418hps Im waiting on the changes to roots to see if im going to the archives or not. But I do hope the change is for 3rd circle only. I have some ideas that I think would help creates unlock north open north n close south lock south a bit. damn thats 2 times already. Please make greater charmies non-poof, I dont understand why they poof any way. Flamestrike up the damage a bit so we have at least one spell Let us control the weather so we can make our lightning bolt spell do dama mge if you dont wanna up flamestrike. Detect illusion please make this non-castable. errr non-combat castable I mean roots well I have too see the changes to it before I say anything else Give us create scroll spell, so we can make moldys and new scrolls etc etc Create potion spell, can make it so we need to get a item then cast the spell to make a scroll or potion. Dunno these are just a few things I would like to see but I would also like imm imput to see if these are even considerable dunno creates just need help badly so anyway nuff said

From: Chaykin Saturday, August 25 2001, 03:01AM I don't see what the problem is with creates, personally. I have a 3c create mage, and he does pretty well. His gsummons average 550 hps with a range of anywhere from 450-620, and he gets ultimate control a fair amount. His damage spells do decent damage, and when I'm not outside to use lightning, or over water to use frost bolt (which does even more damage than lightning bolt in my experience) both flamestrike and etheric void are useful, the latter especially in pk. The tradeoff? He has 100 mind. It seems like there is a big dropoff in spell effects between 90 and 100, based on reports from other creates. Perhaps this dropoff should be eased up on a bit, but on the other hand, if you don't sacrifice the mind, you can't expect to get great results. Yes create roots are a problem, but supposedly the imms are testing a fix for it which we will hopefully see soon. I think making detect illusion non-castable in combat, as Infernal suggested, is fair and a good idea. Chay

From: Nanna Saturday, August 25 2001, 06:18AM Funny, I think Create still has all the advantages. So what that you have And the downgrading of the homunculi isn't that bad since noone uses them anyway. Create has the big advantage that they can have charmies without having to some thing first. Just what I think -shrug- -Nanna

From: Sammael Saturday, August 25 2001, 12:08PM charmies that cost equal or more mana and have equal or less hp...

From: Dashiva Saturday, August 25 2001, 01:05PM first of all, nanna, yes we use homouns, just ask tobias or soze the amount of abuse they get put thru, they are an essantial to any create who wants to beat up something large 2nd, infernals create scrolls idea Ive already asked about, and its gonna be a skilltree skill, (dont laugh) 3rd, the problem here is you all want to take away from something why not leave roots alone, and make a 3c healing spell, roots is fine,

From: Aurelius Saturday, August 25 2001, 01:07PM s s s nanna its very very very not true Homunculi are the cornerstones for 3c create mages... Many very experienced 3c create mages will tell you that homunculi are one of the most important, if not, THE most important spell for a 3c create mage (non-pkwise)

From: Muad'Dib Saturday, August 25 2001, 06:42PM >Homunculi are the cornerstones for 3c create mages... which it should not be? porter hardly means tank, does it? There exists no separation between gods and men one blends softly casual into the other. -- Paul Muad'Dib, Usul of Tabr

From: Chanel Saturday, August 25 2001, 11:55PM saying create's don't need Homunculi is like saying snipers don't need backstab. Homunculi are, well were, awesome because they are very cheap, and there isn't a limit that you can have, that I've found, and I've had 90+ at one time, soloing Cuch. "Porters are not tanks" -this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. All charmies are tanks, we spend mana to not get hit, or at least to try to avoid it. They've taken creates ability to have two greater summons, they've downtoned roots, frost bolt doesn't compare to watery death, Homunculi suck now. Lightning bolt is weather, and area dependant, flamestrike doesn't compare to immolate, ever try earthquake? -laugh- walls are destroyed with a 15 mana spell any halfmage can cast. but hey, we have waterwalk, and create eq we'll obviously never use! -Chanel

From: Maida Sunday, August 26 2001, 03:14AM Umm, me been testing the new poopies and well... This change is a bit odd! It seems mostly to hurt day to day squishings for creates (those that want to accumulate oodles and oodles of xp from poopies) but it doesn't really hurt huge mob squishings all that much, IF you got the dex to run away. In fact, in some cases, it perversely makes it better. However! It really hurts the creates who dunna have the dex to run away. Cause now ifn they use poopies every round is a chance to have the mobbie retarget at them, which is pretty icky ifn you got no hps and canna flee. The problems wif using elementals (ellies) and demonwhatever things Sammael's already summed up quite well so I willna go into them again. For the day to day squishings, the creates it hurts are those with low con/dex. Which is prolly basically as Sammael said - str/mind, which is a bit of a pity, because str/mind without dex DOES take some attention to play. What I'd reallyreally like to see is the hps of greater ellies revised so that instead of the current formula of hp/2 x mind/100 = hp of a greater ellie a 50, we use instead, mana/2 x mind/100 = hp of a greater elly at 50. That would at least give str/mind and dex/mind creates elementals that are worth _something_ as tanks. If you wanna big tank, get more mind. Seems reasonable. The way it is now...if you want a big set of tanking elementals, get more mind...and become tougher (con)? It's weird! Would also veryvery much like to see c3 cause charmies follow either the current formula that determines greater elemental hps, (your hp/2 x mind/100 = hp of charmy) or at least follow the second one that I suggested for the elementals. It's ridiculous and annoying that a c3 cause with all its extra damage spells, effectively 10 extra stats, better ac, etc, should now also have better tanks, for the minimum stats. 60Mind and meeting spell reqs SHOULD NOT give one 500hp tank after another. Maida-bird maida post!

From: Maida Sunday, August 26 2001, 03:29AM Umm, sorry for name mix-up, I meant Carney, not Sammael. -BLUSH-

From: Ea! Sunday, August 26 2001, 05:18PM Just as a quick note -- I'm planning on reworking the elemental formulas, too. I haven't figured out just what yet, but probably I'll lower the mana cost -slightly- and raise their combat ability. This change was primarily designed to make it so that homunculi, which were intended to carry things, not fight, would be used more to carry things than to fight. I'm not trying to downgrade the combat ability of creates, but just change the method. -Ea!

From: Sammael Sunday, August 26 2001, 05:44PM unfortunately the method you want us to use is far inferior to the old one

From: Nepon Sunday, August 26 2001, 07:35PM to hell with the method imms want us to use! i for one do not play this game so i can follow some worthless path set out by some imm to play the game a certain way. if thats what i wanted, i would play any of the useless squaresoft rpgs that your game consists of nothing more than "playing" a pre- determined story. imms need to quit worrying about our methods....different methods make different characters....nuff said

From: Sammael Sunday, August 26 2001, 08:07PM I guess I don't mind you taking out homo's, but at least give us something compareable in return. Not SLIGHTLY stronger elementals, but VERY MUCH stronger elementals. I haven't made an elemental to kill anything in long over 6 months simply because they can't tank and they really can't do any damage either. What would be even better is if you made the elementals each have different strengths and weaknesses, like say Earth Elementals are resist slash and a ton of hp, while the air elemental is resist crush and has super ac/dodge/parry etc. due to being made of air, and maybe the water one is resist pierce and can do something cool like phase doors and bring you with it or something like that, and last but not least our friend fire. Maybe he could be resist magic of all forms and hits really hard. This way they aren't all the same, they all have different strengths and weaknesses we could use in our fights depending on what we're fighting, just like real players and their characters. If I just need a tank, well damn, an elemental sure sounds like a good plan. But if I'm fighting some magic mob who does nothing but firestorm the whole time, well maybe that fire elemental might just do the trick. I'm not asking you make create invincible. Just make them interesting and useful. Thanks again, flame away.

From: Dashiva Sunday, August 26 2001, 09:58PM I really like that elemental idea about giving them diffrent strengths and stuff, sorta like the gsummons, very spiff idea =)

From: Chanel Monday, August 27 2001, 12:29AM I second the idea with diff str's and weaknesses. seems like a great idea that will likely never be coded. I also think we should get a random +2 - +5, random stat on things like flaming sword, flaming shroud, and dagger of ice. it's make them worth using, yet still keep them from being overpowered. Here's another idea, up the damage on earthquake, a ton. in my mind, it should be comparable to firestorm, but it seems more comparable to a 20 mind beam of pain. Etheric Archers should be able to initiate combat, IE: chant blah blah blah ex chanel. and the archer would appear and attack me. Etheric Void could attack two random things, instead of evenly attacking all three, increasing the damage a little that it does to the two. Give us a create rain spell, perhaps kere udan rudh, so we could have a tactic comparable to barkskin/chop. last but not least, make dispel magick eat sink plus effects in one shot, for the spell only, not the brew effect, that would just be too powerful. I think these are all fair ideas about upgrading create, but will all prolly be ignored, go figure!

From: Maida Monday, August 27 2001, 06:51AM I like Sammael's idea a lot a lot and a lot! That would be spiffy, making it so that you'd actually give some thought to what elemental to use under some situation or the other (esp pk) instead of the: I'll just summon 'em all cause they're all I've got kinda mentality. I'd reallyreally love to see something like that imp'd for ellies. Would also mebbe be neat if angels did more damage to evil aligns and less damage to good and demons vice versa and titans equal to all! But thas just me being a ramblybird. I really like Sammael's elly idea! =) (And I even got the name right this time yay me.) Maida-mistake!

From: Kyna Monday, August 27 2001, 08:28AM When you said 'Homunculi now, on average, have less hp, more move,' I expected that my average 120-160HP homunculi might now be average 80-100HP, with the occasional high HP one still appearing ... in other words I expected the average HP's of my homunculi to drop by about a third or maybe half. I certainly did not expect to get average 30HP. I did not expect all of them to have low HPs, on average. My homunculi look they did at lvl 25, when I learned the spell. I shudder to think of the HPs a lvl 25 has on their homunculi now. BTW, I noticed on average they had 5 more mv than before this change. Not that mv matters, once I get enough levels to get a decent mv regen on them and since I always cast fly on the ones I want to move. Oh well, if I'm getting homunculi with 1/5th to 1/6th of the HPs of the old ones, I guess I'll just have to make 5 or 6 times as many now. And spend even more time oow doing other things while I wait for mana regen. Kyna's player who loves playing creates, and has just seen her favourite strategy get downgraded - majorly.

From: Kyna Monday, August 27 2001, 08:45AM Another point to add to this thread ... I use homunculi for xp running. For major eq mobs, I might spend the mana on other charmies, but with the xp split - if I want to get decent xp in a reasonable time, I'm not going to want to be grouped with same level charmies. (Ellies just do enough damage to be worth the mana in my opinion). If I'm going to lose that much xp for every mob I kill, I may as well group with a healer, if a healer wants to run with a create - as opposed to running with a fighter or a cause mage who can deal faster damage, take less rounds of damage, and therefore need to be healed for less HPs. To sum up ... I don't hit hard enough to make it worthwhile for a healer to run with me. I can't get decent xp in a reasonable time with same level charmies. It's going to take a while to regen mana if I use more homunculi (see previous post). When I made my first mage, I asked at a Q&A why are low level mages so hard to level - I was told because of the rewards at high level (by Ea!, if I recall correctly). Now I ask the question, why are high level create mages so slow to level? Kyna's player

From: Thundarr Monday, August 27 2001, 10:34AM Ya know, Ea!, if this "CHANGE" as you call it was to swap around create tactics from homo's to elementals, thats just fine, but why the hell would you just roll in the code to the "nerf" side of things without even finishing the other half? It makes zero sense. Now, as for some of the proposed changes, let's discuss them: 1) Create sword/dagger of ice/shroud etc, they should always summon with +5 net stat, maybe even make it so the caster can specify what the stats is, i.e. "chant kere agni mahi ex spirit" would create a +5 spirit flaming sword. Also, for God's sake already, make them not illusions already? I'll give ya staff of light, but ice and fire can hurt, I mean you're like hey I can detect illusions as I ram a giant icicle through your skull? Yeah it'll hurt! Plus, there should be a 3c "con" weapon that is comparable that is summoned, maybe make it a variant on the dagger of ice spell so that cast levels don't get messed up, so you'd type "chant kere udan mahi ex mind staff" to get a +5 mind staff with similar stats/effects to the dagger. 2) Changes to elementals, I think Samm's idea is great, but please remember that PK balance comes into play. Already, the most effective tactic is to have a few charmies and just inspire the person vs. them and flee/re-enter. THey are pretty much F'ed at this point. If they calm, just re-inpisre. By the way, why does calm fail way more than inspire? Talk about dumb.... so if you increase the damage or hp or whatever of elementals, and this is a good thing, please make it for mob-killing. LIke here's my thoughts, if you inspire a elemental he stops fighting, so they can still be used in PK, but the lamo tactic of inpsire/flee goes out the window. 3) Flamestrike and earthquake... hrmmm they could do a bit more based on mind. But then again, I think immolate should get a bonus for having 100+ mind. Whats the point? 4) Cause skeletons/zombies - I have no problem with them following the formula greater demons follow, and whats her name is right why in the world would it have anything to do with MY con? Uhh hello should be pure mind based. So, my range is like: 60 mind --> 400 hp 80 mind --> 500 hp 100 mind --> 600 hp 5) Create healing, yeah it sucks but since you are fixing it already I will wait and see what comes of it. Thundarr

From: Skar Monday, August 27 2001, 01:56PM Every once in a while, someone will make a suggestion during a weekly Q&A for some little tweak in the interest of balance. The imms usually reply that they're avoiding balance changes right now, because once they start tweaking little things, they end up derailing new features for about six months. In this case, you've ignored your own good advice. In downgrading homunculi, you've opened up another can of worms, prompting everyone to re-evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the create mage. I never used homunculi as tanks that much. Maybe that's because I used the path of least resistance when playing a create mage: I picked con as my combat stat. My doppels and elementals have more hp, so they can tank longer. I can see where dex and strength mages would prefer homunculi. My suggestion is to switch it back and hope nobody noticed. ;) However, I don't see that happening. I've maintained for a long time that it's ridiculous to have the hp formulas for charmed mobs -- create OR cause -- consider the master's con or hp. It's far more reasonable to consider the mind and mana, with an emphasis on mana. Why? Because +mana gear is so renty, it reduces the rent you can spend on combat stats. For example, if you change greater summonings so that you get a minion hp = master's max mana at 100 mind, you could have demons that have 750 hp up to 900 hp or so. However, you have to spend about 14k rent to get that much mana, and you won't be getting much damage out of your mage. You need stronger minions to compensate. That's why I don't agree that minions should have hp entirely determined by mind. If a 1:1 mana:hp formula is too much, tone it down -- apply a 75% modifier for greater summonings, and 900 mana will get you 675 minion hp. Apply different percentages for different elementals, animated corpses, etc. The important thing is to directly link the strength of the summoned mobs to the intelligence (mind), skill (level) and power (mana) of the mage. 3c created weapons should definitely not be illusory. I can create a waterskin, or a bow, or plain dagger, but a flaming sword can be ignored by any half mage or a dispel illusion can disarm you. Isn't it enough of a weakness that you can't rent it and it gives no stats? I'd be happier if the walls weren't illusions either. Make them last a lot less time, prevent them from being preserved, allow people with the climb skill to climb stone walls. Anything to keep them from being entirely neutralized with a minor spell. Different combat strengths for different elementals is an excellent idea. Make sure that the naiad can be summoned underwater and can breathe underwater. I think that a greater earth elemental should be the best tank you could get. It's made of rock, right? It should be able to take a lot of damage, with a susceptibility to crushing blows. Give me one with hp equal to 50% of my max mana, and I'll be impressed. I also liked the suggestion that the roots not be removed from the game. Make any new healing spell for create mages be 3c. It would also be cool if etheric archers could initiate combat. If you pre-type the spell summoning the archer and it hits right after a calm, you've got spell lag and mana loss. :(

From: Nelson Monday, August 27 2001, 09:13PM Here comes the cry of the oppressed creates "death to cause!" I sympathyze, and one day ill get my create past 24, maybe but till then.. How about instead of messing with cause charmies in a bad way, we mess with create charmies in a good way? Don't stick me with a 100 hp skeleton stick Carney with a 400 hp sprite :P (assuming sprite hp is 100ish now) And one more thing, all these things to increase creates against half mages are good and all, but every suggestion I hear increases them against Non mages alot more than craphalfmages, making it so Mr create gets a slig slight boost against Mr half mage(usually just by making them do some other annoying thing to get around it :P) And a huge boost against poor Mr Pure tank. Won't somebody please think of the Constrdex guys! -sob-

From: Kyna Monday, August 27 2001, 09:14PM I've calmed down a little :) and done some testing on these. Their HPs are now based on mind/spirit, so I used three different dex/creates with different minds and created 10 homunculi to see what sort of difference mind makes. 91 mind/43 spirit, lvl 48 -- average HPs 31.3, in the range 21-40. -- average MV 106.9, in the range 105-108. -- greater elemental 161 HP. 81 mind/43 spirit, lvl 45 -- average HPs 31.3, in the range 21-43. -- average MV 106.9, in the range 105-109. -- greater elemental 142 HP. 62 mind/43 spirit, lvl 42 -- average HPs 26.4, in the range 18-38. -- average MV 107.1, in the range 105-108 -- greater elemental 104HP. There doesn't seem to be a lot of variation in their HPs based on mind. The 81 mind alt's homunculi got the same average HPs as the 91 mind alt. And their MV (after it settled down after the first tick) was much the same as before this change. I mentioned in a previous append that the xp split discouraged me from using other charmies (same level doppel/gsummons or half my lvl elementals). In a sense we have already paid for these charmies with mana (not to mention the stats that weaken our fighting ability), so perhaps a more generous xp split - as if the charmie was half it's level, might make them worthwhile to group with. Alternatively, you could up the HP on homunculi (perhaps to half their previous level), increase the mana cost slightly, and make them timed so I can't park them at a mob and go back to it repeatedly. If I had the pracs, I'd seriously consider switching my alts to con ... but I'm a mage and don't have pracs free. A major change like this that hurts dex/str more than it hurts con (as Skar pointed out) perhaps deserves a prac redemption for those who want to switch to con. Kyna's player

From: Kyna Tuesday, August 28 2001, 12:03AM And ... another test. I just did my regular xp run. The biggest mob in the run is worth about 65K xp ungrouped. I'm level 45, 3c dex/create. It took me over 350 mana to kill the mob. Last week it would have taken me 80 mana, maybe 105 if he hit me. As a comparison, my level 35 surgeon has been soloing this mob for several levels now. She's not even fully equipped yet (can't rent it all yet). She gets full xp for the mob. Even with first aid lag, a low 30ish surgeon can kill this mob faster, have no mana to regen, and get more xp for the mob (cos no charmies in the room) than a theoretically more powerful mid 40's dex/create. Kyna's player

From: Christopher Tuesday, August 28 2001, 02:17AM I think you're all missing the point that homo's were created for the use of dragging things around than for fighting. If you wanted to follow AD&D rules, homos were basically little bat men created from a mage's blood and some primordial ooze. Designed to help the mage with various tasks in his laboratory.

From: Chaykin Tuesday, August 28 2001, 02:46AM That isn't the point at all Christopher. Despite what their intended use is, homunculi served a valuable function for create mages that is now unfilled by any of the other charmies in their arsenal. The point is that it's fine if the imms want to significantly downgrade homunculi to put them more in line with what they're intended for, but creates need other charmies to fill the tank functionality in their absence, be they elementals or whatever. Chay

From: Archaon Tuesday, August 28 2001, 06:03AM Ah Ah wayy to many appends!

From: Ibrahim Tuesday, August 28 2001, 06:44AM I think the homunculi hp also depends on spirit. Besides that, another way to have tweaked this, would have been to limit the number of homunculi you could summon. I like the idea of flaming sword not being illusionary. Instead of making a sword, why not let the spell make the weapon you're skilled with? -Ibrahim

From: Israfel Tuesday, August 28 2001, 08:15AM I think the main problem with the change to homunculi is in the regular xp running sense. It only takes about 200 or so more mana to take down a really big mob than it did before. By really big, I mean anything that was likely to do at least 90hp per round, usually somewhere along the lines of 180hp (stacked attacks). I've tested with a few more c3 create alts (str/dex, dex/con, dexmind, str/con, and str/mind). Those that suffered the most were str/mind (no hp to tank or make tanks, no dex to flee) and str/con (have the hp to make tanks, but no dex to flee). Less adversely affected were str/dex and dex/mind. Yes, xp-running took twice as much mana as before (at least) but that's adjustable in terms of which mobs I choose to kill, looking at the hps/dex at hand. The alts I had that didn't even blink were dex/con (it's a 91/90 so it's arguable that that stands in for con/dex as well), with minimum mind. If doppelgangers are used right the effect on these types where xp running is concerned is next to nil. I'd love to see a replacement for what homunculi were to str/mind, str/con, str/dex and dex/mind where xp running is concerned. However, I'm not sure that that is going to happen, because I'm still not clear on the exact reason for this change to homunculi. Yes, they were overpowered, but which aspect was this change attempting to tackle? Is it the xp-running one? Was it just that too many homunculi were lagging the mud? ;) Agreeing with the other posts, I'd dearly love to see some _upgrades_ to elementals. ...and downgrades to animated dead. Israfel

From: Skar Tuesday, August 28 2001, 02:51PM This discussion should remind us that each spell competes in a kind of "ecology" of player strategy -- and sometimes the ecological niche they fill aren't what the designers have in mind. I'm finding myself thinking of the whole thing like some twisted Jurassic Park plotline: the most minor of create mobs were overrunning the park, defeating the most powerful monsters by virture of their darwinistic superiority. Certainly, that's not what the coders intended; homunculi are only to help create mages move stuff around. But, to paraphrase Michael Crichton: "the players will find a way." Of course, the mobs don't actually "evolve" -- but player strategies do. If something's not paying off for them, they'll find something else that will. Create mages are looking for cheap mobs that will take the blows meant for them and inflict damage on their targets. It's obvious that mages value protection more than damage -- more powerful mobs that offer more damage were passed over for a pack of homunculi. Homunculi were also popular because their hp seemed to be determined independently of their master's constitution or hit points, a prime point for dex or str mages. Low mind and low constitution mages will get weaker mobs across the board, while the cost remains the same, making these mobs less likely to thrive in their "ecological" competition against other strategies. So if the fences in the park have broken down and the homunculi are ranging in other fields, it's time for the coders to consider the factors that prompted the situation. That niche still exists, and the players will find a way to find it.