The last couple of weeks have seen an attempt to restore/increase/repair
the role playing atmosphere on Legend. This has not so much been the
result of any organized attempt as much as it has been coincidence,
people taking a new interest, meeting others, and generally being noisy.
I like to think myself that it's some sort of much needed
counter-reaction to the boredom of watching people griping about pkok
and other changes for the last months. However, it has created some
problems.
As one of my morts (Marcel for ye few who may not be aware) has been
deeply involved in at least some of the more recent RP developments,
I've had plenty chance to observe what it's like to be there, just as
I've been the mediator and advice giver several times as your friendly
neighborhood asst PR immortal in the obscure hours. So let's take a look
at what's ruined my mood this week, as well as general feedback, shall
we? Issues of griping in no particular order below.
-Kae
ANNOYING PKILLERS
Problem: If he makes noise, let's kill him.
Solution: PKOK solved a huge part of this problem; at least it's
possible not to accept some performance pkiller who wants to kill you
just for the kill point and because you're drawing attention.
Remaining problem: This does, however, not stop certain types from
verbal abuse on location and on channels in order to get you to accept
them instead of focusing on your plot. While this is something that the
individual player can ignore, it creates a bad atmosphere and may cause
others to be very cautious of joining into RP situations (hey, who wants
to get verbally abused?).
KILLING OF MOBS IN PLOT
Problem: If it's a mob and it talks, let's kill it.
Solution: Make important mobs level 51. Make sure to remember to make
them visible too -peer self-. As for minors that people should be able
to kill, make them level 1 and set up one heck of a spammy alias like I
did to quickly load and string about 15 archetypes. We can load 'em
faster than they can kill 'em.
ORGANISED TINY PLOTS: WHERE THE HECK ARE THE ACTORS?
Problem: It's really difficult to conclude a story line if half the cast
doesn't show up.
Solution: Unfortunately it seems that the only effective solution to
this problem is to make certain to have a set of back-up heroes and
villains recruited from the immortal staff (well, their morts). Those
are people who are ready to step in and take over when and if the
characters of the key roles don't show up or simply leave for some
obscure reason or other. This bothers me, because it adds to the silly
notion of immortals being cliqueish and keeping the fun to themselves,
but I fail to see how we can work around it. It also means that it takes
considerably more than one immortal to host a tiny plot -- it requires
the immortal PLUS a number of other people whom the immortal knows for
certain he or she can rely upon to be there and do their job if everyone
else fails to.
WHY DOES IT ALWAYS HAVE TO END IN PKILL?
Problem: If there is a storyline, it has to end in bloodshed.
Solution: Pkok must be used in order to be of use, and it is the only
way to make certain that not every role play effort on the mud turns
into a bloodbath. People have to be cautious whom they accept, and in
turn, people need to accept that so and so is not willing to settle
everything in the plot with a brawl. If you accept someone, you give him
permission to try to kill you. Live with it. If someone doesn't accept
you it means he's not interested in fighting with you. Live with it.
WHY HAVE PKILL IF WE DON'T USE IT?
Problem: We have a perfectly cool system for characters fighting, yet we
all just stand around and yell at each other instead.
Solution: We need to be ready to engage in player kill when it makes
sense in regard to the characters involved, and the story line they're
involved in. This does not mean that we should fight every time someone
calls our character an idiot, but it does mean that hey, if you think
your character would be mad at an insult, why not have him attempt to
trash the person making the insult? After all, a single death is not the
end of the world to anyone.
WHY EVEN BOTHER?
From: Kae
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 07:24AM
continued...
WHY EVEN BOTHER?
Problem: Combat, pkill, questing and other code-controlled pastimes give
me rewards. I don't get zip for role playing, so why should I bother?
Solution: One word: FUN. But if that doesn't get you, here's a few words
more. Legend does not have a code-controlled reward system for role
playing. We have a few attempts at rewarding good attempts -- the
expies, role play coupons, zip strings, etc. As an immortal I have the
ability to give other rewards -- I can decide to reward good performance
with a string related to the story line, we can even consider cool whois
tags on a few occasions (yeah, that's where Marcel got his ...once
invaded Tara and tried to establish a reign of cruelty! tag, actually).
But because there is no code-controlled system, we need to evaluate
everything manually. In other words, you have to do damn well to stand
out. That's life. If it's not fun to role play for you, don't do it, but
let others have their fun doing it.
SO WHY DON'T WE HAVE A CODE CONTROLLED RP REWARD SYSTEM?
Problem: So and so MUSH has a cool reward system for RP, why don't we?
Fact: I asked Ptah that 4 years ago. Here's what he said: "Come up with
one that favors everyone and doesn't let people bribe their friends into
voting for them instead." I'm still thinking. If you think you can come
up with one I suggest you outline it in an email to me, and I'll pick it
apart for you just like Ptah did mine. No kidding here, it's a very
tough nut to crack.
Time to jump off the soap box, lemme hear your feedback.
From: Kae
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 07:30AM
Oh, I forgot (hey, I've lived night and slept day this week, for a certain
plot): The above opinions do not reflect the staff of LegendMUD, they're a
my personal views, yada yada yada.
-Kae
From: Darla
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 09:13AM
I for one wouldn't mind if you changed the phast of the plots by twelve
hours. I, and others that I know would like to get involved, haven't been
able to make it to the designated hours, which brings up...
problem: WHAT'S GOING ON?
Why are people being so secretive and why are non "actors" left so
completely out of the plot?
From: Dune
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 10:55AM
I have to say, the whole RP/PK thing that has been going on
for like 4 years since Ive been here is getting old. There is always
this focus on trying to get rp going.. making pk more civil, etc.
There is always some annoying debate/discussion about this.
Someone is always talking about the "old days" when either pk
was good, or RP was good... when in reality... I Was around
for a lot of those "old days" and back then, people were talking
about older "old days".
No one is ever satisfied and who the hell cares. There will always
be this huge discussion/debate.... young pkillers will always loot and
be ruthless to eachother... older pkillers will always be more mature...
Frageis, Sterling, Marcel will always RP.... jeez.. these things
have never changed, and probably never will.
Dont you guys get tired of discussing the same thing over and over?
This discussion has been going on for as long as I could remember=p
ITS NOT THAT BAD! Really, its not. Its just the way people are... the
way that people do things. Its all good. PK is fine, RP is fine.
This discussion will never end. It will go up and down when someone
gets annoyed or hurt.... etc.. people will flame, etc.. promote just
their causes, etc.... thats how it always is. I wonder why it surprizes
the same people over and over. Chill or something. Can you see the
patterns?
If lots of people wanted to RP this way, then those tinyplots would be
packed... if lots of people wanted to accept all, then we would have
lots of pkill. Legend is now totally in the hands of the players. Whatev
comes out, comes out! And this is what came out! People dont pk
enough.. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH... people didnt show up for the RP..
BLAH BLAH BLAH! Dont people have a real life to resort to if legend is
sucking? Sometime its good, sometimes it sucks... thats the wild way
of Legend. Maybe we can stop being surprized that the sun rises
every morning.
-yawn-
From: Mariachi
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 11:17AM
A couple of comments, in response to this post and the log of the clan-
building lecture/discussion which I missed, unfortunately.
What I have to say deals with the RP/PK mix and the idea that people are
'afraid' to make clans with certain RPs.
PK and RP can and should be combined. What is the point of PK without RP?
To me, there is no point. He who types fastest and knows the mud best
wins, but wins what, exactly?
I haven't been here enough to be involved in PK or RP recently, but my
last PK experiment was the founding of the Dred Pyrats clan, something
many may have considered largely unsuccessful, but I considered a great
success. I suggest that fewer people be so attached to their clans and
allow the new clan system do what it was designed for, freely forming
and unforming clans, a living organic system of clans. Allow for the survi
val of the fittest, so to speak.
What we did with the Pyrats was a bit different, in that we didn't all wai
until level 50 to become active at PK. Contrary to popular belief, we enga
ged with others withing a few levels of ourselves, and tried to encourage
more low-level PKing. However, higher-level killers took exception to our
actions, which was expected, and they hunted us to extinction.
Now, even though by the end, it was worse than hopeless, and our character
were all just logging on to get multi'd until perma, it was fun for us,
and that's what counted. A few of our victims didn't have so much fun,
certainly, but we hoped that they would either enjoy their revenge, which
most of them got, or find other ways to deal with it. Only one of our
members continued killing someone who had asked them to stop, except for
on one occasion. Actions had consequences, and we got what we deserved,
in the end.
That was, PK and RP combined. Since our RP was evil, people said 'that
isn't RP, that's just being jerks.' which, I suppose, is a legitimate com
complaint, excepting that that's our RP, and tough. If you didn't want to
deal with us, you didn't have to. That would be even more true now in PKOK
So that's my comment anyway. I also want to dispute the claim in the previ
ous post, that ruthless aggressive PK RP is somehow 'less mature' than the
'older' PKers' RPs. That's an immature attitude, that something you don't
like is inferior and immature. Anyway....
Mari
From: Dune
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 11:37AM
Hm, if I made that comment then I would like to take it back...
Upper level pkers dont multi the way lower level pkers do. I said
that cause I wanted to acknowledge that while people like me are
practically immune to the threat of getting multied or looted.. that
little players are often not immune. I made the comment out of respect
and trying to consider the fact that not every little pker can enjoy the
security in pkill that I do... I was trying to acknowledge the problem.
A lot of bigger pkillers rebuke people that claim that people get multied.
I know that its true more for lower level, and I always thought that it
was insensitive to state that if you get multied, its your fault, cause it
doesnt happen with "mature" pkers.. most of which have the skill,
and resource to reach higher level.
I made a little runt pker once that didnt have the name recognition that
my upper level pkers do... and yes, he got multi and perma threats and
attempts by the same very people that looked up to and respected this
character and my other level 50 pker.
I was little and resourceful and quick and able to get sneaky with all
these threats... but saying that its not ruthless at lower level.. is not
saying the truth. Is it maturity? I dunno... Im sure it has something to
do with it... I liked the dred pyrats. I wish I was a dred pyrat so
that they had someone that could wail on upper levels when they all
leveled into level 50 range and got "hunted to extinction".
If you remake the dred pyrats, a little unknown fighter will be looking
to join.
From: Mac
Tuesday, October 24 2000, 02:39PM
"I suggest that fewer people be so attached to their clans and
allow the new clan system do what it was designed for, freely
forming and unforming clans, a living organic system of clans."
Unfortunately that's not really possible when housing costs
quite a lot to begin with, you can't transfer ownership to
the new clan and can't even withdraw from your clan account.
From: LadyAce
Wednesday, October 25 2000, 11:18AM
I don't think anyone has tried to be secretive -- I posted to the welcome
board, was contacted by 8 or so mortals who wanted to be in the plot
and we were off. The trouble really came when people were trying to join
the plot at Chapter 3 of 4, and not figuring out background or asking
what had happened before doing so. In an attempt to mend that a bit,
I will post a summary today of what happened the last 3 days. We had
been doing okay keeping everything coherent the first 2 days, so I
thought all was well....live and learn :). Our conclusion, part 4 of 4,
will be played out tonight at 5.
Another note...
This plot did not have any pre-set 'actors' or 'roles' to it. It went
in the direction of the players who joined and shaped it. But once a
story gets rolling, we can't very well change the premise. This means,
for example, that a certain clan cannot show up on the 3rd day and
claim that they are in charge, and then expect other people to simply
buy it and ignore all the other things that had been established
previously...-poke Grendels-
I very much appreciate and welcome new people joining anything like this,
at any time. HOWEVER. Remember the annoyance that we feel toward newbies
who show up and start critiquing Legend before they even play, just
because they don't understand right away? People who are mid-plot feel
the same way about mid-story arrivals. New people are welcome, but they
need to do their homework. I will post a summary to make it easier, since
this story is so complex. Another option might be talking to one of the
players or imms when they are not so much "in the thick of it".
-LadyAce
From: Elisa
Wednesday, October 25 2000, 12:45PM
Could we maybe have a tinyplot that isn't just about a few people, and
without scheduled times so more people could get involved?
From: LadyAce
Wednesday, October 25 2000, 02:43PM
The reason I set a time is that it allows me to guarantee that I will
be there. It also helps a lot with story telling -- as opposed to
ongoing interactions, which can happen at any time, stories generally
need to have their characters all collected for employment at
the right times. If there's a general gathering time set, we can get
a consistent set of players to carry the story. I think it would be
hard to build up a drama with a beginning, middle, and end, if we
couldn't rely on any particular people being present for the pieces.
Tinyplots are about the people who show up for them. They don't instantly
engulf the RP of everyone who says something, and not every plot will
have a hook for the story you want to tell.
I can tell you for certain, however, that nothing discourages people
from being part of "public" RP than accusations that they're somehow
shutting people out. For the good of the mud, give people a chance to
let you in before you cry foul. Give them several chances. Push, prod,
be patient, look for a chance and jump in. It's my job to do my best
work no matter what I'm accused of, but players are not hired to
put themselves on display for the critiques of others. If you want
more RP on Legend, don't zap the confidence of people trying to RP by
saying they're excluding you.
This little speech is not about the people who appended to this post. It's
about the people who spammed the players in the tinyplot last night with
complaints. If you don't like something, if you want in, for goodness
sake, talk to the imms, or talk to the players/imms when they are less
spammed later on.
-LadyAce
From: Fuzzey
Wednesday, October 25 2000, 07:22PM
We do have tinyplots that have no set time and have no set actors...
Its the mud!
-Fuzzey
From: Elisa
Wednesday, October 25 2000, 07:23PM
Yes, but non-immalts don't get to create mobs and other things for our
individual plots, or get people to jump to just by virtue of calling it
a tinyplot. -shrug-
From: Fraegis
Thursday, October 26 2000, 02:46PM
I believe non-immalts still can ask any imm (if they have the command) to
help them out, if it concerns creating mobs or anything..
All you probably have to do is ask, likely in advance so they can
be prepared for it.
Fraegis
From: Kae
Friday, October 27 2000, 11:14AM
I can obviously only speak for myself and my own alts in this --
but then, I sure feel compelled to.
When I participate in role play here and there, which I do quite
a lot, I usually try to make sure that I don't do anything that
any regular player with no immortal alt could have done. I don't
switch into mobs, I don't do echoes, I don't load mobs, I don't
use zip strings, etcetera.
If I need these things, I approach another PR immortal about them
just as the rest of you guys would have to.
Why? Because there is no reason I should have an advantage
that everyone else doesn't.
However, at the time we're dealing with a scheduled tinyplot
such as for example the recent Boston one --
I use echoes, mobs, items, whatever I have at my disposal, not
for my character, but for the plot. I find it worth noticing
that in this particular plot, all the main characters were not
alts of immortals. The people who constructed the main story
line in advance and briefed LadyAce and I upon it are not immortals.
That's great! But it also means that I feel slightly miffed
of the indirect accusation of using immortal powers to further
my mortal goals, so to speak.
I remember that in the Boston plot in specific, my character
spent most of the time sitting in his clan hall -- why?
Well, the story required it, and frankly, I was relieved it did.
If you think role playing can be spammy in ONE window, try TWO.
Apart from playing my own character I also played the guardian
of the gate, the angel that eventually helped remove the gate,
about 25 different mobbies on channels and on location, and
about half the spiffy echoes and announces. It's fun --
but it's awful spammy too.
Which once again lets me stress the fact that as a player, you're
not really very interested in having to involve your immortal
character at the same trouble spot your mortal character is.
Immortal intervention is a great thing, and it's a fact that
we have commands and options available that can really enhance
a storyline. That's what we're here for -- well, it's one of
the reasons we're here.
All you need to do is ask -- preferably at least a few hours in
advance, so that we can go over your idea with you, and prepare
what needs preparing.
Want your own tinyplot scheduled, on the events list, on boards,
in the LT, etc. etc. etc.? Write up a draft and go pester one
of us about it! We're always looking for good ideas.
The best damn tinyplot I've ever participated in, long before
I became an immortal in the first place, was written by a mortal -poke Oan
...dlig- :)
-Kae
From: Elisa
Friday, October 27 2000, 04:10PM
Ok, I'm confused here. What is a tinyplot? What is the purpose of having
one? When should we ask for a tinyplot, and when should we just do our own
thing? Why would we want one, anyway?
From: LadyAce
Saturday, October 28 2000, 01:44AM
I consider a tinyplot to be publically-played out story with a
preset beginning, and a middle/end that may have some or no
scripting. A tinyplot is designed as a "mud-wide" event, and staged
as such -- sometimes designed by players, sometimes designed by
immorts.
If you want to design a tinyplot with an imm, you'd pick out
that beginning, toss ideas around, determine a day/time, and
discuss what kinds of roles different players might have in it.
As to why you might want one...if you have an idea for an RP
even that requires a great number of players, extra levels of
organization/publicity/etc....if you want to help sponsor a
mud-wide rp event to encourage RP...essentially, if it's
your idea of fun.
A few past tinyplots:
- solstice rituals
- invasion of Tara
- Dark Invasion
- overthrowing of the archbishop of Lima
- the wooing of Mistress Quickley
- the Spring Feast in Sherwood
- Murder in Casablanca
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. They're not for
everyone, stylistically. They have a tendency to emphasize the
major themes of human drama and result in a large amount of
storytelling rather than subtlety or development of individual
characters.
A few examples of where there might be significant imm help in
making the event a success, but I wouldn't necessarily qualify
them as a tinyplot:
- the riddle of the djinn
- any of the rp/pk 'clan-themed tokens' contests
- weddings, parties
Does this help clarify at all? I've had some requests for a
help tinyplot -- I'll convert this post into a draft of it.
If you haven't attended any of the items above (I tried not
to mention any I knew were more than a couple years old, but
time muddles together a bit in my memory) or heard about
them, this might not be helpful. Please let me know where
I'm not explaining sufficiently.
-LA
