Posted by Dune on 08/02
... if anyone cares or takes notice that certain players are
frustrated and upset with our pksystem. Im asking for
some RESPONSE from the imms. Read some of the above
posts.
You guys are losing some of your most dedicated players. You
are losing the people that worked the hardest to find out all
the new eq you put in, all the quests that gave access to
special areas... or cool eq...
You are losing all the players that take the time to explore your
exciting new areas. You are losing all the players that look hard to
find cool rooms that have really neat aspects to them that are mostly
useful in pkill.. that is, fooling other players. Rooms that are 2n
to get out, and only 1s to come back... rooms with mobs that have cool
acts and respond to certain hometown types vs others.
Jeez, there are so many things to name... so Ill just summerize why
they all go together. They are all aspects of this mud that make it
interesting for pkill. For players that dont pkill, most of these
are just a nuisance. An area with a dangerous mob, or a weird room that
is a DT unless your flying, and blows you around to other random rooms..
all that stuff is just avoided by nonpkill....
So now Im going to ask a question of the imms... directly.
Do you guys see value in all this? Do you simply not agree with what Im
saying about how pkillers really take the time to appreciate and learn the
mud that you are creating? Should I just shut up?
I would have shut up sooo long ago (when I stopped playing) if I was
the only one.. it doesnt seem like I am. Every virtual world needs its
top and bottom... its good and evil.
Free speech in America is one of the MOST important aspects of its system.
Yeah, it allows a lot of crazy people to march in the streets and show
support for hatred and racism... but somehow, there is a value to that.
The freedom to speak your mind and not be prosecuted for it is worth all
the good and bad it creates....
Let me explain one other thing. Your pkokall thing with clans, or
whatever you installed, does not work. Am I wrong in stating that?
Do you guys read the boards? It doesnt work... You know why?
Its not because "people dont want it". Thats wrong. To me that
proves a very basic understanding of human nature..
In the most basic course, that every university has in every social
science major, you learn about the prisoners dilemma. Go look it up.
Thats why your system doesnt work.. not because people dont "want it".
Sometimes you need a governing body to hardline a certain right, that
would collapse as a whole if decided individually by each person weighing
cost benefit for theirself.
So read over the board. A lot of us stopped posting and just gave up...
But Manticores recent posts have resparked some discussion. Tell me that
you dont value the things that I mentioned... and that legend would be
fine without them.. and Ill shut up. You cant do much against a society
doesnt want you. Im not so sure that that is the case...yet.
If it is, please enlighten me. Tell me that the bad is just too bad to
allow a more accurate reference to human nature.. complete with
survival, and conflict embedded.. for and good and for bad.
Just settle this for once. Tell me that you dont want me to be logging
on anymore because its never going to change, and that Im just whining...
Tell me I live in a country that doesnt care about me. Push me and the
likes to just leave. Lets settle this. Do you guys care about us,
or not? Dont we have a point? Dont you care about your mud?
Dune and Poetry
From: Arrak
Monday, July 31, 10:53AM
se
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Damn...that was good
From: Skar
Monday, July 31, 04:39PM
Dune, I took your advice and researched the prisoner's dilemma. How
does it relate to player-killing here?
For those that haven't looked it up, the prisoner's dilemma is a
non-zero-sum game. That is, I don't have to lose for you to win. At
each round of the game, you can either cooperate with or betray your
partner. If you both cooperate, you get points. If you betray your
partner while she cooperates, you get lots of points and she gets
screwed. If you both betray, you get points, but not as many as if
you had cooperated. Your goal is to maximize your score.
According to the reading I've done, there's no one generally
accepted best strategy, but it seems to me that the most sustainable
strategy is to cooperate. If you betray, then you get a short-term
increase, but it's unlikely that your partner will ever trust you
again.
This is beginning to make a little more sense to me, Dune. I believe
that too many people are going for short-term gains -- ie, how can I
get an advantage in this one fight? Obviously, I should reject all
challenges until I'm absolutely prepared, accept someone and kill
them. After that, I should reject them at my earliest opportunity to
avoid reprisals.
The trouble is that nobody will want to play with me under those
circumstances. Nobody will use the system, and pkill will wither.
Was that your point about human nature?
We all need to think about the long-term prospects for pkill here.
If large numbers of us accept all challenges, then we can continue
to play the way some of us have become accustomed to. At the same
time, we must never abuse each other's trust, because if one of us
drops out -- or decides to only duel -- our pool of opponents drops.
We have to trust that, although we may lose a fight, we won't be
looted or multied outside any limits we ourselves agree to. You may
defeat me, but if I'm enjoying myself, I haven't lost. If your goal
is to take that enjoyment from me, you'll only win once. I won't
play with you again, and we'll both have lost.
From: Dun
Monday, July 31, 04:45PM
Ok...no im not nearly as smart as Dune, and skar...but I know what pk was.
not sure what the dilemna thing was you were talking about, or
maximizing points...but I do know, the reason -most- and I say most as in
most of the older pkers...(pkers who pk'd in the old system a lot) probabl
hate the idea of people being able to reject them after they taunt, multi,
or loot...people wouldnt care about loot if there wasnt, SO MUCH old equip
-ment with the hit/dam changes, or people with SO MANY strings they
cherish so much...I know looting was a thing in the old pk system too, bu
but you could ALWAYS get someone back for it...in this system, you might n
-ot be able to...
I know this is my only reason for not accepting all, and I know
that i would accept all, if I was positive I could get
revenge...it might sound cheesy or something like that but
getting back at someone, for something awful they do, is great...
not being able to get back at someone for something awful they do...
is terribly awful...
ok enough of my trying to get a point across, which I probably
failed doing...
-Dun Foal -=Effin Pissed=-
From: Huginn
Monday, July 31, 05:11PM
Do we care if the hardcore pkillers stop playing?
I can only answer that from a personal standpoint.
Yes I care if you guys leave. You're right alot of
the folks that have put in the most time and are the
most verbal (for good or worse) fall into that hardcore
catagory.
What I remember of the prisoner's dilema goes like this
however:
Two people are arrested for a crime, let's call them
CharA and CharB. If both A & B confess then they both
get 5 years of prison time. If A confesses and B does not
then A gets 2 years while B gets 5 years. Obviously the
reverse is true if B confesses and A doesn't. If
both remain silent then they do no time.
There was a competition awhile ago where people coded
their strategies and had them play against each other.
I believe the winner was a program that did tit-for-tat.
It started out staying silent and then mirrored what
the last move was of its "partner". So if you ratted
on it, it would rat on you next time. If you stayed
silent, then you'd both win. You'd think that that
strategy would work well in the pkok world. You
start accepting and then stop based on negative feedback.
But apparently that's not the case. One reason for that
is that the incentive to risk ratio is off. If that's true
then having a high jump environment itself isn't enough of a reward
for most people. Otherwise they'd pursue that goal themselves.
They need something else to risk accepting for...
I'd hate to see those people leave .. well at least most of you.
So there are three questions that need to be answered.
1) is the imm staff doing enough to make pk work?
I don't speak for the staff. And personally I've been too
busy to do almost anything legend related. So I'd say no
to a personal version of that question, undecided on the staff
version (again as a personal opinion).
2) are the players doing enough to make pk work?
My personal opinion is that the players want a coded fix
and aren't interested in contribution outside of discussions
on the boards. Have I tried to join a pkill clan and accept
people? Yes. Have others? Yes. Have enough players? No.
3) What incentives can be included for accepting that aren't
combat influencing? Otherwise all the vets will be even
more unbeatable since they'll be "winning".
Huginn
From: Dune
Monday, July 31, 06:02PM
Skar, that was exactly my point about human nature, the prisoner's
dilemma, and the reason that the whole thing doesnt work. I dont
always have the patience to post it as clearly as you have, and if
I did, then it make my already too long post even longer. Dun's post
states the same thing more subjectivly. Its pretty clear
why it doesnt work... I just wonder why no one cares to deal with it.
The rest of my post is actually more important to me... Im just
wondering if legend has set a goal for itself... like a new direction of
where it wants to go. Maybe people like me should just stop posting
and get over it -shrug-, and find someother place to go.
Personally, I dont think a virtual society can exsist without top and
bottom... good and bad... etc. I always admired the imms at legend
for understanding this, and allowing players like Dusk, who at times
have committed heinous crimes on legend... to exsist. A natural mechanism
kept him and others in check, and a neat balance was created. Now we have
a "club" more than a mud. Let me tell you, that some of the most heated
and exciting situations were created by the crusade against the more evil
pkillers. Its all gone, and everything is very flat.
So the question Im really curious about is whether or not this is
valued here, at legend. If its not, then Im sorry for being such a freak
on the boards. I feel a little security in posting because Im reading
that a lot of people agree.
So maybe some imms could clear it up. I honestly dont mind
closing the subject and just looking elseware. Just tell us where the
direction is going.
Dune
From: Wyvern
Monday, July 31, 06:41PM
damn that was nice
I agree with everything Dune sas
says
From: Wyvern
Wednesday, August 02, 11:29AM
strangely enough, i kinda believe what Dune says about the
Prisoner's Dilemna. There are MANY times that i had fun, even though i die
or, where i had fun when i got looted, spiced it up a bit.
Which is pretty weird because my goal is not to die =P
I also have fun being doubleteamed, and a very high risk of dying
is present.
Of course, i'd feel crappy after i die, but nonetheless, i'd have a lot
of fun.
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